Immigration Reform

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Robert_555, Dec 8, 2005.

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  1. Robert_555

    Robert_555 New Member

    IMO, I feel immigration has placed on the back burner for too long. On the side of illegal immigration, I feel there should a ZERO tolerance policy. If one is an illegal alien in America, then it is time for you to leave plain and simple. Why should one benefit for living in America by arriving here illegally? I feel if our government has the resources to deport most illegal aliens (like 75% if not more). Our government is not doing its job in protecting American citizens from potential terrorists or being displaced in employment by illegal aliens. As with legal immigration, it needs to be severly curbed. Our country should not let more than 200,000 immigrate to our nation every year. Our government needs to also stop family reunification as it comes to illegal immigration. We are not a country with vast frontiers as in the early history of the United States. Mass legal immigration has lowered wages and also displaced American citizens in the employment market. I do not buy into the arguement that immigrants do jobs that Americans do not want. Most Americans would do these jobs if it paid a decent wage and had benefits. IMO, it is time that our government put its people first and others second. I know many will disagree with me and even call me racist. I do not care and I am not racist. Immigration has very little to about race and more about numbers. We are letting too many people in America and have too few economic and financial resources. Again, Americans should have first grab at these resources and immigrants second. Call me xenophobic, whatever, this is the way I feel and it is my belief is that we are not putting Americans first and need to start doing so.
     
  2. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Shoot them all! Or hang them from a tree! That will teach them a lesson.
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Me first: You're xenophobic.

    And unless you're 100% Native American, you're also an insufferable hypocrite. Your family got theirs, so screw everyone else?

    But more than that, you're economically ignorant as well. Immigrants don't just take your slice of a static pie. Their presence expands the economy, leading to a bigger pie for everyone, especially in the long run.

    God bless 'em. Open the gate!

    -=Steve=-
     
  4. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    I recognize this as being a complex issue. It is also a potentially volatile issue if not approached properly. Please proceed respectfully. Thanks.
    Jack
     
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Sorry, Jack, I'll switch to decaf. It's just that when that person said the U.S. "government needs to also stop family reunification as it comes to illegal immigration" he was (however inspecifically) talking about me with my wife, who's out of status and filing for a greencard based on her marriage to me. Made me ornery.

    -=Steve=-
     
  6. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: Re: Immigration Reform

    No, he's not. I don't agree with most of what he says, but xenophobia is not his problem. If it were, he'd be making the "we don't want 'dem people who'r difrent frum us" (and for no other reason than that) argument. Robert_555, however misguided he may be, presents non-xenophobic points... mostly economic ones. Xenophobia has nothign to do with economics.

    I don't think he's saying that, either. He's talking about legality. He's not saying no one else should get theirs. He's saying that they should do so legally... following the rules of the system.

    Did you know that, among those in the Hispanic community who now have their US citizenship (but who were once green card holders), that is now the minority opinion? They espoused that very opinion themselves... that is, until they got their citizenship. Now, one could chalk that up to a variation on the, as you put it, "your family got theirs, so screw everyone else" theme, but when you talk to them, they cite economic reasons, too.

    Completely understandable. It's a passion-filled issue. My significant other has a green card; and since it'll expire in a couple years, she'll, no doubt, be a citizen soon. But I have often wondered what would happen if, for any reason, she were suddenly ordered out of the country by the US government. What a tragedy... and not just for our relationship, but for the hopes and dreams she had for a life here... a life in which she works very hard (10 hours per day, five days a week), for provably less money than a white American citizen would earn doing the exact same job!

    I feel your pain. It is not an easily-resolved issue. But not everyone who raises it is a xenophobe. And not everyone who cites the economic issues has got it wrong.

    Am I saying that I agree with Robert_555? No. I'm saying it's complex, and there's something worth listening to on both sides of this contentious issue.
     
  7. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    This is a perfect example of the complexity of this issue. There's lots of personal experience tied up in this issue, in my own family as well. Step gently please.
    Jack
     
  8. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Re: Re: Re: Immigration Reform

    No, he's not. I don't agree with most of what he says, but xenophobia is not his problem. If it were, he'd be making the "we don't want 'dem people who'r difrent frum us" (and for no other reason than that) argument. Robert_555, however misguided he may be, presents non-xenophobic points... mostly economic ones. Xenophobia has nothign to do with economics.

    Very well.

    I don't think he's saying that, either. He's talking about legality. He's not saying no one else should get theirs. He's saying that they should do so legally... following the rules of the system.

    Yes, but rules that he wants to change. I still can't help but think that any decendant of immigrants who espouses severely curtailing immigration has the burden of proof when it comes to avoiding hypocrisy.

    Did you know that, among those in the Hispanic community who now have their US citizenship (but who were once green card holders), that is now the minority opinion? They espoused that very opinion themselves... that is, until they got their citizenship. Now, one could chalk that up to a variation on the, as you put it, "your family got theirs, so screw everyone else" theme, but when you talk to them, they cite economic reasons, too.

    No, I didn't know that, although while disappointing I suppose it doesn't really affect my opinion. We're talking about citing economic reasons to oppose immigration, but what mainstream economists believe that immigration is a long term economic negative? (It doesn't really affect my opinion, since mine is based more on libertarian grounds; I'm just curious.)

    Completely understandable. It's a passion-filled issue. My significant other has a green card; and since it'll expire in a couple years, she'll, no doubt, be a citizen soon. But I have often wondered what would happen if, for any reason, she were suddenly ordered out of the country by the US government. What a tragedy... and not just for our relationship, but for the hopes and dreams she had for a life here... a life in which she works very hard (10 hours per day, five days a week), for provably less money than a white American citizen would earn doing the exact same job!

    I certainly wish you both the best, and may things here never become that ridiculous!

    -=Steve=-
     
  9. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Family reunification is an interesting problem in immigration law. Since everyone not related to an Ambassador who manages to be born in the fifty states is automatically a citizen of the U.S. regardless of parentage, we are often faced with deporting the undocumented parents of a U.S. citizen child.

    Now, the child has an undisputed right to live here and may not have the undisputed right to live anywhere else. Most of the time, though, the child's parents are citizens of the Republic of Mexico (which now gives the child a sort of dual nationality.)

    INS' idea of "family reunification" is reunification IN MEXICO. As a practical matter, then, INS ends up deporting U.S. citizens!

    Given the We Hate Immigrants Act of 1996 (signed by the sainted President Clinton), INS often has absolutely no choice.

    Something wrong with this picture.
     
  10. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    You guys don´t understand that no law can stop hunger or poverty or lack of opportunities. As long as there are these gigantic differences in income at both sides of the border, people will keep on coming to the US. It doesn´t matter if you promulgate 200 laws to forbid it, build a wall or shoot "aliens". They will keep on coming. Of course, the US has a maximum capacity of absoption, but obviously it hasn´t reached it yet, and while there is demand for those people to go to work in the most terrible jobs, they will keep on coming. Funny thing is everyone in the US is either an immigrant or a descendent of one...... some forced inmigrants..... even native Americans, the legitimate owners are thouht to have crossed the Bering Strait some 30,000 years ago.... Strengthen your neighbor´s economies. Your only way out.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Just out of curiosity, why does one whose location is Amsterdam care about America's borders?
     
  12. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Probably same reason you care about other international issues. Satisfied your curiority?
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I do care about other international issues. However, unless one lives in America, one really has no grasp of the immigration issue.

    By the way, much of what you said, I agree with; some, I don't

    Doesn't the Netherlands have a very liberal, open immigration policy?
     
  14. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    I have been living in the US a long, long time. Years, in fact.

    I have no idea about the Netherlands immigration policy. Probably it is, as you said, way more lenient than that of any other country. And we have far worse problems with immigration that those described by Robert555. That´s why I think he´s exagerating. In any case the US interests me, and I read carefully what takes place there, in what I consider my second home. You may not believe it, but I not only read the big papers like NYT, I also read small local papers from the areas where I used to live. That´s how attached I feel. I am aware that for some people it can be offensive that a foreigner comments on one´s country´s issues, but I don´mean disrespect. Just mere debating. :)
     
  15. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member



    JLV, your comments are always welcome here, and they are certainly not offensive in any way. I have found your posts to be extremely intelligent and insightful!


    take care brother!


    Abner :)
     
  16. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member



    What's up with that Jimmy?
     
  17. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    Does this mean that after five (5) years of marriage I can not bring my wife over to the U.S.A. because she was born in the Dominican Republic?

    Amazing, finally someone that tackles the root of the problem instead of the symptoms.

    Abner, you are the embodiment of class and reason in this discussion.
     
  18. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Immigration Reform

    That "Native American" thing has had a good political run but is losing breath. We just don't know which peoples were here or who slaughtered who for regional dominance in pre-Columbian times.

    Sorry Steve but that is standard libertarian cant and is, IMO, as narrow-minded as the zero-sum, socialista caca.

    I once posed a, IMO, quite realistic scenario to an anarchocap type. I said that the US simply opening its borders would, over perhaps a decade, result in an additional billion people coming here with tens of millions dying in the attempt. Her response to that? "I am not their mother." These ultra-libertarians consider themselves to be the most moral of people but I consider them to be our version of Stalinists.

    If the US simply opened its borders, other governments would round up their "surplus" populations and ship them here. And "coyote" type entrepeneurs would lure untold millions more with lies and hazardous transport. The US would be swamped with people who would make the skirmishes of the early 20th Century look like a picnic. Martial law and some form of socialism/fascism would be our future. And as we went so would go the world. No expatriating to some idyllic redoubt like Costa Rica.

    Am I saying that new immigrant groups are different from the old? Not at all. Much of our socialist drift has been due to those past waves of immigration.
     
  19. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member


    Thanks Miguel, the feeling is mutual. Have a good weekend!



    Abner :)
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Re: Re: Immigration Reform

    Not all libertarians support open borders. About half don't including Neal Boortz.
     

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