California Coast University or Pacific Western University(California)

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by brandon, May 23, 2002.

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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Broderick:

    These words might be apropos: "Sorry I wrote such a long letter. I didn't have time to write a short one." Mark Twain.

    My--or your--military status is irrelevant.

    I've never called CCU a "mill" of any kind.

    The two/three alternatives vs. four/five regarding CCU's tests was not asserted by me. It does appear, however, that it was done in jest. But if that is the difference between good and poor quality, we are cutting a very fine line, indeed.

    Regarding my dissertation, I am purposely introducing bias into the experiment, then measuring the result.

    Your casual conversations do not seem to rise to the standard of evidence. Again, do you have any evidence that explicitly shows where companies will accept unaccredited degrees in general, or those from CCU in particular?

    The "club" analogy regarding the lack of acceptance of non-RA credits and degrees at RA schools is not a strong one. I happen to believe it is an enforcement of quality standards. Market forces pull these schools in the opposite direction (towards accepting more students, not less). Normally, a paying customer like yourself would be welcome, but they've got quality issues to deal with, and those win out.

    CCU has allowed people to take doctorates in less than a year for decades. Even without specific examples, there is the school's literature that permits this, which preponderates. You assert this does not happen. Okay, where's the evidence that runs contrary to CCU's own literature?

    Your posting issues seem to have been addressed by Chip. Why you asked me I don't know. I've got nothing to do with it.

    You've made your choice. Go enjoy it. But don't expect concurrence--especially when you make claims about quality that are not supported by the evidence.
     
  2. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Im still in.

    Where did you get your AA? What was the original official designation? I was under the impression that the AA was a uniquely American invention. I am not familiar with any South American institution that offers such a degree.

    Just like the CCU exams… ;)
     
  3. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    wow

    Wow,

    Nothing gets everyone going in here like when someone posts about CCU!
    My AA comes from Chile, where I lived for eight years, and where it is called a “Titulo Technico” . There is no RA only the Ministerio de Educacion and SENCE.
    Capt,
    I do believe it does matter, often the words “Integrity” and “Standards” come into play here, and as a retired Mustang , I know that you understand that being condescending is not what we are taught to do. It is below us. That all, no offence.
    I never said you called CCU a mill, or that the number of questions on the tests, or many other things, I was just answering your questions in regards to other posts here. I know CCU CAN award PhD’s in less than a year, all I said is that I doubt anyone would FINISH in a year or less.

    Chip,
    The only reason I had three names is because I clearly remember a time when “sgtbroderick” was my only name and for some reason I could not post. Because of my enthusiasm I created the other names so that I could reply to a discussion before. I apologize if I caused any problems. I will only use this name from now on.
    I find it very disturbing that one would refer my opinion as “mill speak”. In regards to mills there is a huge level of dishonesty and secrecy. It is no secret that CCU is un accredited. It does not offer some bogus agency as do many of the other places, (I know, I know, they once did but they dropped them like a hot potato a number of years ago.) I have nevr kept it a secret that i was a CCU student. I dont plan on to.
    My employer knows they are un accredited, but the California state approval was enough for them, since we are located in California.
    I do not apologize for me being a student of CCU. I am not a shill, as you and the others are not bullies, so please do not refer to me as such. Finally I'd like to know what the “lackluster” stuff you refer to embodies.
    These are just my opinion Gentlemen, I just wanted to offer my point of view as a student of CCU. I only think it makes the forum stronger by opinions such as mine. Let me see someone from Trinity do that!

    Michael
     
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: wow

    Offering an opinion or point of view is fine. But expect others with considerable experience to take issue with your statements. If you can back up what you say, fine. If not, then you've got your opinion. And you've stated it.
     
  5. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Re: wow

    Broderick:

    A minor point, albeit an important one, is that in Chile, as in most other South American countries, the Titulo Técnico (Technical Certificate) is a catchall terminal “degree.” Its value is greatly dependent upon the subject major and the granting institution. For example, one could have a Titulo Técnico in woodworking (lathe), occupational safety, landscaping, radiology (x-ray technician), auto repair or computer programming. The granting institution could be a university or a private vocational school. The American equivalent would range from some sort of vocational certification to, at best, an AS, but under no circumstances would it be equivalent to an AA, as the "degree" isn't transferable, and there aren’t any general education requirements.
     
  6. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Re: Re: Re: wow

    I agree to a point with your statement Gus, but you are missing some important issues here in regards to the education system in Chile. First, there are no general education courses found in the systems in Chile as we find here. If one wishes to study law, they begin to study it from day one at the university they have enrolled in. My ex wife has here degree in journalism, and she never had courses that were un related to the degree title. No math, no science, no P.E. electives of that sort. Although it takes a student on average five to six years to complete their degree, compare to the four year bachelors we have here in the states. You are correct that there are many universities and “institutos” both public and private. My ex wife’s school was private as was mine.
    In my eight years of living in Chile I have never found a “Titulo technico” in woodworking or plumbing or any other trade, but in professional areas as business administration, (not to be confused with the “titulo professional” of “ingenero comercial”) advertising, nursing, programming, etc.
    In order to have the degree validated one must take it to the Instituto Chileno Norteamericano, have it translated and validated at the consulate. At least that is what I had done. It can be done, and it has! It is not exactly the same as a AA in the US, but it is an equivalent granted by a school in Chile.

    Michael
     
  7. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: wow

    I am well aware that universities in Chile, as in other South American countries, are modeled on the European system. However, you must well know that validation of an overseas degree is, much like the much-discussed apostille, just verification that the degree is authentic, and not any statement of equivalency. When I mentioned transferability, I meant just that. A proper Bachelor level degree from a foreign school is often sufficient for admission to an American graduate degree program. A Titulo Técnico, under no circumstances would be accepted as equivalent to an AA for admission to, for example, a Bachelors degree completion program.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2002
  8. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: wow

    I'm sorry Gus. I disagree.

    Michael
     
  9. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: wow

    I’m not exactly sure what, precisely, you disagree with, Michael, but I’m always open to the possibility that I may be wrong. So that I might better understand where I erred in my assessment, please answer the following questions.

    Did CCU (or any other U.S. school) accept your Titulo Técnico as an AA?

    Did the Titulo Técnico save you two years of study towards your BS? In other words, were you admitted with Junior standing?

    What school (instituto) did you attend in Chile?

    What was your major or field of study?

    Thanks,
     
  10. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Here's the beef.

    Gus,

    CCU did accept part of the degree for some credit, and with some of the other credits they did not accept I was given accelerated learning guides. As for junior standing, CCU is continuous, so they dont have semesters or the like.

    The Marine Corps accepted it. It's in my SRB.

    I attended CHILEDUC. I will get you the SENCE code if you like. I dont have it right now. (Files are in my office!)

    The course of study was Business Administration.

    Toodles!

    MIchael
     
  11. DWCox

    DWCox member

    Re: FYI

    --------------------------------

    Allow me to correct you, please.

    The study guides are comprised of 200 multiple choice questions, with five answer options A, B, C, D, E.

    Test #1 = 25 questions
    Test #2 = 25 questions
    Mid-Term = 50 questions
    Test #3 = 25 questions
    Test #4 = 25 questions
    Final = 50 questions

    The Accerated Learned Guides are comprised of 100 multiple choice questions with four answer options A, B, C, D.

    Test #1 = 25 questions
    Mid-Term = 25 questions
    Test #2 = 25 questions
    Final = 25 questions

    The chapter number is provided but the page number is not! However, most of the questions fall in order, which means if a test-taker can not locate an answer, s/he can confidently believe the answer lies somewhere between the questions s/he has already answered.

    If a graduate student does not correctly answer 80% (70% for undergraduate) of the questions, s/he must complete another examination. This examination covers only the questions missed. The examination is essay format with an essay answer required specific to the subject matter of the original question. An "A" on the retake examination is only possible if multiple sources (not the course text) are sited in each response.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 27, 2002
  12. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    The certificate programs offered by University of California Extension usually do not require a degree as a prerequisite. These certificates are awarded after completion of 12 to 20 units.
    Brandon might be interested in certificate courses such as the UCR cert ACCOUNTING FOR GOVERNMENTAL & NONPROFIT ORGANIZATIONS which rquires 12 QU.
    I am working on a field geology cert at UC Riverside and may apply these certificate credits towards a second BA degree in natural sciences.
    I am not aware of any certificates offered by DL and the cost is approx $100/QU

    Ian
    BS USNY
    MSQA CSUDH
    MAS ERAU in progress
     
  13. Dissertation Defense

    Mr. Broderick,

    The testing requirements for CCU have been widely discussed. Can you or anyone else shed some light on the "Dissertation Defense" statement in the CCU pdf file version of the catalog?

    I was wondering specifically if the student's dissertation committe held this event of if the school office assembled some local "experts" for the candidate to defend with?

    Regards,

    Dick
     
  14. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Dissertation Defense

    Michael:

    Now I’m really confused. First you state that you have an AA from Chile, and claim that there it is called a “Titulo Technico” [sic]. I politely pointed out that, the Titulo Técnico was equivalent to anything from a vocational certificate to, at best, an AS, but under no circumstances would it be equivalent to an AA. My reasons were that the Titulo Técnico wasn’t transferable (not even into a Chilean university), and there weren’t any general education requirements.

    You responded by stating that, in eight years of living in Chile, you never saw a “Titulo technico” [sic] in any of the trades. However a quick search revealed the CV (resume) of an individual with a Titulo Técnico majoring as a machinist that can be found here, and an instituto offering a Titulo Técnico as a Dental Laboratory Technician that can be found here. Moreover, you’ll notice that many institutions such as the Universidad Técnica Federico Santa María offer Técnico Universitario degrees in such subjects as Automobile Mechanics, Electrical Technician, Electronics Technician, etc. Also, if you click on some of the degree program links such as the one for the Electrician program, you will notice, contrary to your assertion, that PE and Sports are mandatory, as are several courses in Mathematics. More than likely this is because, as you know, the Técnico Universitario is a Titulo Técnico, offered by a university rather than an “instituto”.

    I next pointed out that the process you described undergoing simply verified that the degree was authentic, and not a statement of equivalency. You disagreed. The Instituto Chileno Norteamericano is a primarily cultural institute, although they offer their own Titulos Técnicos such as Executive Administrative Assistant, Bilingual Executive Administrative Assistant, International Business Technician, Bilingual Translation Technician, and Bilingual Executive Secretary, reinforcing the fact that the degrees are vocational in nature. The Instituto Chileno Norteamericano, would however, be the place to go to get a notarized translation of a transcript or degree, as there primary activity is teaching English and Spanish. And yes, the next step would be to go to the US Embassy (although you could’ve had the same thing done at the Chilean Embassy or Consulate in the U.S.), as Chile does not follow the Hague Legalization Convention. However, neither the Instituto Chileno Norteamericano nor the American Embassy issues any kind of official document attesting to the equivalency of a degree. In fact, in the United States, many colleges and universities don’t undertake that task themselves, and defer to the opinion of either AACRAO or an independent credential evaluator (such as ECE or WES). Moreover, many schools may only accept the evaluation of a particular service, and the school is not bound by the evaluation; it may accept only parts of it or reject it completely.

    I don’t think you disagreed with my statement that a proper Bachelors level degree from a foreign school is often sufficient for admission to an American graduate degree program. If so I can provide the url for several institutions that state that a licenciado or titulo profesional from Chile are acceptable.

    You must therefore, have disagreed, when I stated that, ” A Titulo Técnico, under no circumstances would be accepted as equivalent to an AA for admission to, for example, a Bachelors degree completion program.” I stand by that statement. This is not an attempt to denigrate a ”Titulo Técnico” degree; in some cases they may be indicative of a more specialized degree of knowledge in a field than even an American AS. It is not, however, equivalent to an AA.

    Interestingly, a “Titulo Técnico” probably has more utility in Chile than an AA has in the United States. Most Chilean students do not score sufficiently high enough on the extremely rigorous national entrance exams, and therefore are unable to attend one of the 25 traditional (public) universities. The alternative is to attend one the more than 40 private universities that have come into being since 1980 or the multitude of “institutos” that offer vocational degrees. However, as previously noted, the “Titulo Técnico” is a terminal degree; it has zero transferability into a Chilean university program.

    However, what is most distressing about your statements, Michael, is your claim of having received a “Titulo Técnico” from CHILEDUC. According to their Web site, CHILEDUC is in the business of corporate training and consulting (they have an excellent reputation in Chile and even train university personnel), but do not confer any “Titulos Técnicos”. This was confirmed by phone with the administration of CHILEDUC.

    So, although you may have participated in a few of their programs through your employer (they do not enroll students privately), and may even have received some kind of certificate for doing so, you could not have received a “Titulo Técnico” from CHILEDUC.

    As DegreeInfo becomes increasingly more international in scope, I am certain these kinds of issues will arise more frequently. This is one case, however, that is crystal clear; a “Titulo Técnico” is not an AA, and a certificate for attending a few corporate training classes is definitely not a “Titulo Técnico”, much less an AA.

    I once thought I was wrong, but I guess I was mistaken. ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2002
  15. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Gus, Doesn't it suck to be wrong?

    HAHAHAHA Gus,

    You think your so smart! First of all, wrong CHILEDUC. Look up Instituto National de Educacion Profesional, Chile. (BTW It is a private school, as are many of the professional institutes). Remember CHILEDUC is an acronym. CHILE - (duh), DUC- (education).
    If you want to talk to administration, contact Profesora Elizabeth Tejuex, Directora Dociente at the school. Or Don Eduardo Roa, Director Ejecutivo. They were there when I was, I don’t know if they are still. Use my name, I completed my degree in March ‘92.
    To be honest, I‘ve never seen that place before (must be new), and at a glance, it doesn’t even look like a school. Sorry to disappoint you. Ill still give you the code from the Ministerio if you want! I also paid for it myself. It took two years of hard work to get that degree, especially if you consider that my Spanish was not great at the time, don’t try to lower what it really is.
    Second, you’ve failed to mention that hardly any credits, if that, are transferable from program to program, or school to school in Chile. Then of course you didn’t live there for eight years as I did, so how would you know? That’s ok, I understand.
    My brother in law started to study law and did so for three years until he burned out and then transferred to another school and studied public administration. He had to start from scratch. I don’t even think one could transfer credits from the U de Chile to the U de Catolica. Believe it or not, that is just the way it is. I feel it has to do with money more than anything. So saying that a Titulo technico would not be transferable in Chile for a professional degree completion is correct, because none are!

    As for the Titulo Technico, I stand corrected in regards to automobile repair and electric trades. It has been five years since I lived there and I don’t remember such degrees being offered. I do agree that stating that it is an AA is incorrect, it is more in related to an AS.
    You need to understand that in Chile everything under the Titulo Professional is called a Titulo Technico
    Titulo Professional: 5-6 years (or more)
    Titulo Technico: 2 years (or more)
    Everything else doesn’t count as a titulo. People refer to a Titulo Technico or Titulo Professional only.
    Hell, your not considered a professional unless you have a Titulo Professional.
    At the American Consulate in 1992 I was instructed to go to the Instituto Chileno Nortamericano to get the transcript translated by a translator there, and in addition, they recommend the equivalency to the American education system on the translation. The transcript was then forwarded to the consulate where it was certified by the consular officer, Consul General Richard Mann. That’s all I know.

    I would not consider the bachelor programs in the states similar to the Titulo Professional in Chile. As I said before, they are usually five and six year programs, and for that amount of time it isn’t even considered a masters! As a Titulo Professional being transferable to a graduate program in the states, I wouldn’t doubt it at all. A degree is a hell of a lot harder to complete there than here. (IMHO). As for the Titulo Technico, why wouldn’t it? As I’ve said, I got credit at CCU. Just for giggles, Ill try with the Local U. and see what happens.
    Live there for a couple of years and you’ll be less confused.

    Michael

    P.S. Bring it on!!
    :)
     
  16. Allow me to cue the music.
     
  17. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Good one Gert! J.P. Sousa, a great U.S. Marine.

    Semper Fi

    Mchael:)
     
  18. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: I wouldn't know; why don't you tell me?

    At this point, Michael, I see no reason to laugh; I do not find the misrepresentation of academic credentials to be a laughing matter. Moreover, I fail to see what you find so amusing, as you have now backpedaled and agreed with every point I was trying to make.

    You have agreed that the ”Titulo Técnico” (although you have also misspelled “Titulo Profesional’ and ”Ingeniero Comercial”, if you posses a ”Titulo Técnico”, you should, at least, spell it correctly, as you should also ”Nacional” in the name of your professed alma mater) is not equivalent to an AA. (¿Estas seguro que vivistes en Chile por ocho años? ;) ) It is therefore to wrong and misleading to claim to have an AA, even if you specify it is from Chile.

    You have also agreed with me that the process you described undergoing, only authenticated your documents; it did not confer equivalency to any US degree. And we have come to an agreement concerning the vocational nature of the ”Titulo Técnico”; they are, at best, akin to an AS. Moreover, you have conceded that the transferability of the degree is zero.

    I agree with you that the “Titulo Profesional’ is a slightly different degree than the US Bachelors. I brought up the fact that the Chilean system of education was patterned after the European system, and much has been discussed on this forum comparing US and European (primarily UK) Bachelor degrees and the tradeoff between depth and breadth. However, as for your considering that in Chile, “A degree is a hell of a lot harder to complete there than here,” might I suggest you try a real school instead of CCU? ;)

    So, as you have not disagreed with the fact that a certificate from CHILEDUC (notice how I provided the link to the institution I assessed?) is not even tantamount to a ”Titulo Técnico”, it appears we agree on everything. So what’s so funny?

    To me, it’s not funny that you don’t provide links or full information concerning your professed alma mater, and the information you do supply is misleading. I don’t think its funny that the fully searchable database of the Minesterio de Educacion doesn’t have a listing for ”Instituto National de Educacion Profesional’. I fail to see the humor in the fact that you first offered to provide a SENCE number and then a Minesterio de Educacion number (both of which would be helpful), but have yet to provide either. However, as I am sure you know, SENCE ( Servicio Nacional de Capacitación y Empleo), or the National Training and Employment Service, is affiliated with the Ministry of Labor, not the Ministry of Education, and would not authorize an institution to confer ”Titulos Técnicos”. (And yes, although I am aware that many institutions have both a SENCE and Minesterio de Educacion numbers, you originally supplied just the name CHILEDUC, and offered only a SENCE number, and that is what tripped my Malarkey Meter™.)

    So do you have another (third) name for your alma mater? Or a link? Or an address and phone number? Could it be the Instituto Nacional de Capacitación Profesional? If so, for future reference it goes by the acronym INACAP. Maybe it is the Instituto de Formación Empresarial S.A. that goes by the acronym IFE.

    Mind you, read carefully, I’m not saying that the ”Instituto Nacional de Educacion Profesional’ doesn’t exist, isn’t registered with the Minesterio de Educacion, or that you didn’t attend classes or graduate from there. I am simply stating that a multitude of search engines and databases (including the one for the Minesterio de Educacion has no record of an institution under that name).

    So, as you can see, based on the information you have provided so far, I have ample justification for my state of confusion. ;)


    OK, now THAT’S funny… :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2002
  19. wfready

    wfready New Member

    Re: Here's the beef.


    Michael,

    First off, Semper Fi, Marine. Secondly, Which degree (program) did the Corps put in your SRB? The Titulo Técnico? (heh, I imagine spanish bull fighting music in the background when I read that degree title) Or, The BS from CCU? Would they put that one your SMART transcript even though its not accredited?

    Regards,
    Bill
     
  20. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Re: Re: I wouldn't know; why don't you tell me?

    Gus,

    Your wrong,
    I'm right.
    Dont you get tired of gettin' beaten down like this?:p

    Waaaaaaahahhahahahah!

    Michael
     

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