California Coast University or Pacific Western University(California)

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by brandon, May 23, 2002.

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  1. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: One man's eloquence is another man's huh?

    Bill:

    Contrary to what some people would have you to believe, the Titulo Técnico is neither complex nor controversial; it is probably the most commonly issued credential in South America. Personally, I have absolutely nothing against a Titulo Técnico degree; in fact, I have hired many individuals with such degrees. In Chile (and many other South American countries), the degree provides a great amount of utility to the vast number of people that do not score high enough on the national college entrance exams, and therefore have to attend the vocational career schools or ”institutos”.

    It is interesting to note that, despite the large number of South American immigrants in this country, the issue of degree equivalency of the Titulo Técnico has never arisen in this forum, or even the old AED. More than likely, this is because the Titulo Técnico is not considered an academic degree in South America, and few would have the hubris to compare it to one (only in America!). However, what I am truly concerned about, and what is much more troubling, are individuals who claim degrees from institutions that don’t appear to exist. This kind of activity negatively impacts anyone that holds or is pursuing a degree from a foreign country that would like his or her degree to have utility in the United States.

    What some may fail to understand is that this isn’t personal; this is not about any one specific individual. The only reason I have for caring whether someone really has the degree he or she claims is that I care about academic fraud and behavior that affects not only the acceptance of foreign degrees, but also reflects negatively on all of us involved in distance learning. What many fail to realize is that the world is becoming an increasingly smaller place, and as the importance of fostering and encouraging cultural diversity in the workplace continues to grow, the quick and accurate verification of foreign credentials becomes essential. Moreover, as we have recently witnessed in two separate cases in New Zealand, equivalency and claims of fraudulent or unverifiable credentials are extremely important issues with serious repercussions.

    I don’t believe it is a simple matter of opinion to take a stand against the claiming degrees from sources that cannot be verified (or a refusal to provide the information necessary for verification), or those who believe this is acceptable behavior. Let me try to put it in perspective. What if Western Seminary did not have a Web site, or did not show up on any Internet search engine? What if no accreditor or even the government of the United States would acknowledge its existence? What if no easily accessible evidence existed of a single person holding any degrees whatsoever from Western Seminary, except for your claim, here, on this forum? What do you think would be the reaction of your fellow theologians and distance learners?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2002
  2. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Response from Chile.

    I posed a question to officials in Chile, This is the response I got.

    Lamentamos informar a Ud. que esa institución dejó de funcionar y de tener la autorización de Sence y el Ministerion de Educacion, por lo tanto, nos es imposible certificar alguna actividad realizada por ellos. Atentamente,

    Oh well, sometimes life sucks, but I did go there and it was legit.


    Michael
    :(
     
  3. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: One man's eloquence is another man's huh?

    ______________________________________________________Gus:

    Of course your point is very well taken! I have always valued (in my lengthy 3 mos here) your wit, your sincerity, and your expertise. Sorry I am so ignorant on this topic.

    What I was taken back with was the fervor and the duration and the sheer volume of readings and postings on this thread. I was comparing it with that exhaustive and combative and equally durative thread on someone's Potch thesis. It received some criticism I think for exhibiting certain qualities it, at least to me, shares with this. Then I felt I was defending a just and reasonable point too, but I was disappointed that few saw it as I did.

    Again, my post intended neither to question the strength of your position nor the virtue of your purpose.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2002
  4. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Response from Chile.

    Translation:
    • ”We regret to inform you that this institution has ceased functioning and is no longer authorized by SENCE and the Ministry of Education; therefore, it is impossible for us to certify any of their past activities. Cordially,”

    Based on your post, sir, I believe you owe me an apology.
     
  5. MAYES

    MAYES New Member

    This subject is alive

    Let's kill it with one word



    >>>>>>>>>>>>SUBSTANDARD>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    R.I.P:cool:
     
  6. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    OOPS, Forgot.

    Sorry Gents,

    I totally forgot, I had to run out to buy the baby’s diapers and get dinner. My wife pulled me off before I could finish and it slipped my mind, BUT here is the code: 01.01.1427-13

    I owe no one anything, I was accused of fraud, and that was untrue.


    Michael
    :cool:
     
  7. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Response from Chile.

    Wait a minute, is this supposed to be the alma mater that CCU accepted transfer credits from? Did CCU accept transfer credits that couldn't be verified? If so then CCU is much closer to a totally worthless diploma mill than I thought.

    BTW Rich, I agree completely that it is Broderick's decision. I only meant to say that in my opinion it's likely that he will come to eventually regret his decision.
     
  8. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Response from Chile.

    Bill:

    You are wrong in assuming that the transfer credits could not be verified; they can. One would only have to write or call (011-56-2-390-4000) the Ministry of Education in Chile, as I have.

    The truth, however, may be even more troubling; in all likelihood, CCU never even tried to verify the authenticity of Broderick’s degree or the nature of his transfer credits.

    However, in CCU's defense, there is also a good chance that Broderick’s claims are false.
     
  9. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Response from Chile

    I have always taught my children the value of a sincere apology. It takes, what is often referred to as a “big man” to admit the error of his ways. At various times in this thread, you have referred to me as petty, girlish, and boorish, in addition to denigrating my research skills as amateurish. Oh, and lest I forget, you also inferred that I was a fool in addtion to characterizing my cognitive abilities as sub-standard. I did not take these baseless accusations seriously, as I understood they were simply an attempt to divert attention from the real issue. Your latest response, however, leaves me no alternative to, once again, accept your invitation to, “Bring it on!”

    In your responses, I would appreciate it if you could curtail the ad hominem attacks, and instead stick to the questions and issues at hand. Also, please refrain from the transparent attempts at misdirection or evoking public sympathy by wrapping yourself in the flag or hiding behind newborn babies; you should understand this kind of activity only raises more suspicions. The truth is that as long as serious doubts exists (and they do) concerning your claim of having earned a Titulo Técnico from the Instituto Nacional de Educacion Superior, all your other claims—including being a Marine or parent of a baby in diapers—are also suspect.

    The following questions raise serious doubts about your assertions:

    Why doesn’t an exhaustive Internet search for a Instituto Nacional de Educacion Superior in Chile yield any results? You would think that someone, somewhere, would at least put the name of his or her alma mater on an online CV or resume, or there would be a reference, however miniscule, in some kind of publication. Instead there is zip, zero, zilch, and nada. A search using the name of any other authorized ”instituto superior” in Chile yields a multitude of hits.

    The response you posted (in a foreign language without bothering to translate it, even though the majority of members of this forum are not fluent in Spanish) left out some very important details. For example, what, exactly was the question you posed, and who were the “officials” in Chile?

    Why would these officials, refer to SENCE (it is always capitalized in Chile, just as the FBI, CIA or IRS are the United States) as Sence? For that matter, why would they refer to the Minesterio de Educacion as the Ministerion de Educacion, a term only used in Spain and a few Central American countries?

    What is the significance of the number (01.01.1427-13) you provided? According to Pamela Coronado in the registration department of SENCE, it has no significance: course numbers are 10 digits; national registration numbers are 4 digits; and RUT numbers are 9 digits. You called it a code; would you please decode it? Actually, if this number has anything to do with SENCE, don’t bother answering the question. SENCE is irrelevant to this discussion; SENCE is affiliated with the Ministry of Labor, and registration with SENCE does not authorize an institution to confer Titulos Técnicos—that authorization must come from the Ministry of Education.

    Because of the crucial role played by the Minesterio de Educacion, my last question is perhaps the most important one. In fact, you can ignore all the other questions, and just answer this one:

    Why would Maria Teresa Alter in the Departamento de Educacion Superior of the Ministerio de Educacion de Chile,and Belmmor Arauco, head of the Departamento de Examenes y Colegios Particulares of the Ministerio de Educacion de Chile, both insist that an institution by the name of Instituto Nacional de Educacion Superior has never been authorized by the Ministerio de Educacion de Chile to confer any degrees whatsoever? Why is it that over eleven individuals I spoke to in the Ministry of Education never heard of such and institution? (Keep in mind, there are only about 50 ”institutos superiores” authorized to grant Titulos Técnicos in all of Chile, so most of the staff at the Ministry of Education could probably recite them all in their sleep. ;) )

    I understand that it is extremely convenient for you to now claim that the school you profess to have granted you a degree has gone out of business and therefore no further information is available. Only those who understand how highly the government controls and regulates the educational system in Chile (for example, private universities weren't even allowed to exist until 1980) can appreciate how ludicrous your assertion is.

    The bottom line is that a cryptic response from some anonymous “officials in Chile” to some unspecified question does not further your cause, quite the contrary. All we are left with is what we’ve had since the beginning—your assertions. And unverifiable assertions concerning academic credentials are just that—assertions.

    But look on the bright side, Broderick, if your Titulo Técnico from the Instituto Nacional de Educacion Superior (and everyone I talked to agreed it was a great name) cannot be verified, why not claim you earned a Ph.D. from the school instead? :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2002
  10. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Your such a sore loser!

    Gus, Gus, Gus,
    You silly man you. The more trash you try to dig up or say, the more it blows up in your face.
    You question me having a baby son or being a US Marine?

    http://xxxxxxxxxxxxx

    http://www.usmc.mil/news98.nsf/c222721f3b5c54bc8525657d0055615b/dc9a539a4ed30651852566dd00447238?OpenDocument

    You say you couldn’t find anything regarding my alma mater or the net? You must have not tried very hard or your computer skills suck:

    A professor:
    http://www.academia.cl/prof/admp/admp18.htm

    Another professor:
    http://www.fau2000.uchile.cl/trip_102.html

    A former student’s resume:
    http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/5666/datos.htm

    And another resume of someone who attended!
    (I think I even know who it is!)
    http://www.vitiviniccultura.cl/p4_portadas/site/port/bolsa.html

    And…….oh no! I cant believe it! The school’s listing! Holy Cow! Granted it has changed it’s name since I graduated and it is located in Antofagasta, but I have reason to believe that it was affiliated with my alma mater:

    http://www.chilenet.cl/empresas/I/79656290.htm

    Once again I say I have an American equivalent to the Associate Degree in Business Administration and I still value CCU. Signed, sealed, and certified. You don’t think so? Fine! Deal with it!

    Michael

    P.S. Hey Gus, can you hear that? It’s the sound of me thumpin’ your ego all up and down this forum. Want some more?

    MB:p
     
  11. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    So I suppose that Instituto Nacional de Educacion Superior is the same as INSTITUTO NACIONAL DE ESTUDIOS SUPERIORES LTDA.?

    Well that certainly clears it up :rolleyes: just another case of sea going bellhops not being able to spell, that I CAN believe(?).

    Or NOT!
     
  12. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    Also, unless thay have changed the terms in the last 16 years, I tought "mustang" refeered to an officer who had been promoted from the enlisted ranks? Not promoted to NCO, or am I missing something else?:p :rolleyes: :confused:
     
  13. wfready

    wfready New Member

    Also, unless thay have changed the terms in the last 16 years, I tought "mustang" refeered to an officer who had been promoted from the enlisted ranks? Not promoted to NCO, or am I missing something else?

    OK I was following this thread fine until this comment came up. I am really confusedd now! Who said anything about a mustang!? :eek: :confused: :cool:

    Bill
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2002
  14. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    Not that I really want to get into this discussion, but Michael originally called his school CHILEDUC if I remember right. That is the title at the top of my browser when I follow the link.

    His other links do back up his previous statements. Although I wouldn't say I am 100% certain If I had to decide if Michael was stating the truth I would say he was.

    Tony
     
  15. Re: Your such a sore loser!

    Originally posted by Broderick
    You say you couldn’t find anything regarding my alma mater or the net? You must have not tried very hard or your computer skills suck:

    A professor:


    A professor from a different school who taught a single course in supervision. Sounds like your basic, continuing-education-for-industry deal.. not an unusual side job for professors in ANY country. Not particularly persuasive.

    Another professor:

    Another professor from another institution who taught at the "Instituto de Capacitación CHILEDUC"; roughly translated, that's "CHILEDUC Qualification Institute.." which amounts to a training center. (Where's Caballero Lacaye when you need a really good contextual translation?) But again, not persuasive.

    A former student’s resume:

    She took a single 4-month course in computer graphics. See a trend here?

    And another resume of someone who attended!
    (I think I even know who it is!)


    Wow. A graduate of the supervision course described above. When do we get to academic courses from an academic, degree-granting institution, again? But if you know her, say "hi" for me.

    And…….oh no! I cant believe it! The school’s listing! Holy Cow! Granted it has changed it’s name since I graduated and it is located in Antofagasta, but I have reason to believe that it was affiliated with my alma mater:

    Or, in other words, the listing for a school which bears no resemblance whatsoever to your claimed alma mater, except that both are purportedly in Chile. Right. I see. "Oh no!" is right. Oh.. No.

    By the way, did I mention that my alma mater actually changed its name to Harvard University? Granted, it's located in Cambridge and not in Trenton, but I believe it was affiliated.

    Once again I say I have an American equivalent to the Associate Degree in Business Administration and I still value CCU. Signed, sealed, and certified. You don’t think so? Fine! Deal with it!

    You have, at best, training from what in America would be a continuing-education provider, or a trades qualification agency similar to the City and Guilds of London. Not an academic degree. At worst, you're a bullshitter, and not a very good one.

    But you're right. It IS fine. Value whatever you want.. just don't try to sell chicken excrement labeled as chicken salad.

    P.S. Hey Gus, can you hear that? It’s the sound of me thumpin’ your ego all up and down this forum. Want some more?

    I'm not Gus, but all I heard was the sound of your name hitting the Twit Filter. But I do thank you for the cheap entertainment and a chance to stretch my Spanish Reading muscles a little.

    - DM
     
  16. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    Regardless of how this shakes out no one will ever say I'm not gullible. :cool:
     
  17. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Learn to spell "you're" before calling anyone a loser!

    There you go again, straying from the issue at hand, and hiding behind a poor infant. Didn’t I ask you not to do that?

    You just don’t get it, do you? This isn’t about Michael Broderick. If it were, I could post a buch of links too. Here’s a Michael Broderick who is a Ph.D. at a professor at Auburn University. A Michael Broderick that is a State Representative to the South Dakota legislature can be found here. And there a numerous references to a Vegas casino legend, Sir Michael Broderick (didn’t you say you worked in the casino business?) that can be found here and here. I also distinctly recall asking you to cease the flag waving and stick to the issues. There isn’t a need to substantiate (not that you could) any of your other assertions at this point.

    Not a single mention of the Instituto Nacional de Educacion Superior on the entire page. What’s your point?

    Once again, not a single mention of the Instituto Nacional de Educacion Superior on the entire page. There is, however, one mention of the Instituto de Capacitación CHILEDUC, about which you had this to say, and I quote:
    • ” HAHAHAHA Gus,

      You think your [sic] so smart! First of all, wrong CHILEDUC. Look up Instituto National de Educacion Profesional, Chile.”
      [emphasis added]

    You are correct; it is a student, and it is a resume. Unfortunately he attended the Corporación Nacional de Formación Empresarial (Chileduc), a vocational school not authorized by the Ministry of Education to confer the Titulo Técnico in Chile. Is this the school you attended? That would explain everything. You will notice that the student claims nothing more than a ”titulo” (Spanish for certificate) for a 4-month class (August 29 to December 17 1996).

    Not a single mention of the Instituto Nacional de Educacion Superior on the entire page. One mention of the term CHILEDUC, but once again it appears to be the well known Corporate trainers, as the individuals does not claim a degree from CHILEDUC, but simply indicates attendance in 1993. She does however, claim to hold a Titulo Técnico from the Escuela Comercio Superior San Felipe. Coincidentally the date of her graduation is also 1993, lending credence to the fact that she only took a vocational or corporate training course at CHILEDUC. So you think you may know someone that attended a completely different school. What do you think are the implications of that?

    Wait a minute. The name of the school is different, and it is located somewhere completely different, but you have reason (unstated, of course) that it is affiliated with your alma mater? I understand why you would feel compelled to cry out, “The school’s listing! Holy Cow!” This is as close as you ever have come to any semblance of evidence that the school you profess to have attended exists. If I were you, however, I would truly hope this is not your alma mater, as the ”Instituto Nacional De Estudios Superiores’ isn’t listed with the Ministerio de Educacion de Chile as having the authority to confer Titulos Técnicos. Pay close attention to the Web pages you have provide; when you see the word “training” or in Spanish, ”capacitacion”, it means corporate training or worker retraining.

    I have no problem with you saying that you have American equivalent to the Associate Degree in Business Administration. Say it all you want. Unfortunately for you, however, saying won’t make it so, and you simply can’t prove it. So as far as I am concerned, you can claim to be the Queen of Sheba.

    And of course you value CCU. You and CCU may be better matched than you could have ever (even in your wildest dreams) imagined. One can only surmise that your pursuit of a degree from CCU is for one, and only one, reason: to foist even greater duperies upon the unsuspecting. The utility of a degree from CCU is in direct proportion to the ignorance or incompetence of the person charged with evaluating it and the willingness of the degree holder to be deceitful. However, I am certain you’ll be able to extract the maximum utility form a CCU degree. Think about it; at least with CCU you have a degree from a school that, however substandard it may be, you will be able to prove actually exists. ;)

    Still don’t get it, do you? This is not about me; this is not about you. This is about claiming credentials that cannot be verified. In fact, it is even more than that, as there is no proof that your school ever (legally) existed. The fact remains that no amount of misdirection, no amount of infantile bravado, changes the fact that the school you claim granted you a Titulo Técnico, was never registered with the Ministry of Education, and therefore, even if it existed, it would be fraudulent. (Isn’t it funny how that was the only question that really mattered, and you never addressed it all?) :rolleyes:

    Wait, I’ve changed my mind. You have been successful in your efforts to verbally browbeat me. I agree with you. I give up. Please don’t give me any more. I can’t take any more. Please, no more. Your degree is equivalent to an American Associate degree. Let me state it once again for the record. Your degree is equivalent to an American Associate degree from such schools as Western Columbia State, Denver State University, Monticello College and Seminary, and Southern Trinity College and University. :D :D :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2002
  18. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    You sound like a Marine taxi.


    Mike,


    You must be or were a squid to come up with that trash. My complements! And I thought you all only referred to us as jar heads while wearing that pretty white uniform.

    Good Job, I’m impressed. (see Gus, some one here knows how to flame me right.)

    The mustang referral was to Mr. Douglas. He was a prior enlisted Airman and worked his way up and received a commission. Even though he was in the Air force, (that was sarcasm), enlisted have great respect for mustang officers.

    Semper!

    Michael

    ;)
     
  19. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Re: Learn to spell "you're" before calling anyone a loser!

    I’m tired Gus, and my wife is getting pissed that I’m on the computer every night for the past few days with my rebuttals. Although you think I’m full of it, I know I’m not, and I know the legitimacy of what I hold in my hands, and who I am. When I complete my BS, MBA and maybe my PhD. at CCU, that will be more fodder for your silly amusement, but until then I’m calling a truce. It has been tons of fun, but I think we both need to go to our rooms for some time out now. Besides, over 3000 views to this thread. Wow! Is that a record? Until the next time.

    Michael
     
  20. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Re: Re: Learn to spell "you're" before calling anyone a loser!

    It is good that you are content with substandard, unaccredited, illegal in some states programs. These are ones most High Schoolers would sneer at but perhaps despite their total lack of substance and utility they will suit you. You have made it clear you didn't want a real program with substance and usefullness. Good luck in your path.
     

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