Azteca University - International - Foreign Credential Evaluation

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Jul 27, 2022.

  1. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    For those of us that have been participating in this discussion board for a little while, we know at the end is all about finding an affordable and distance program that can get you where you want to go. In the old days, this was a state approved schools that was good enough to dress a CV for an adjunct position or claim to be a doctor, then we started with some foreign options in SA that although affordable, they were not so feasible as very few people were able to do them due to the fact that these programs were not so foreign friendly. Over the years, many program have became available and the latest wave are propio doctorates from Spain, Mexico, CR, Nicaragua, etc that are popular because cost and foreign friendly with english and friendly format that make them feasible to complete. UNEM was perhaps the first of these schools that in the early 2000s was offering some low residency doctorates until someone figure out that they were not authorized to grant doctorates but only masters, by then many people have already completed them and used them in the US with positive evaluation (I assume) from NACES evaluators. There were others like the popular MIGS that also was offering propio doctorates but it seems that were not long enough to grant even one doctorate.

    Azteca operation seems to be expanding and I wouldn't be surprised if they start buying international operations with more flexible accreditation systems that would allow them to grant accredited degrees from Countries that would allow them to be more flexible unlike the Mexican system that only allows them to grant degrees for programs that are authorized by the minister of education.

    I was very surprised that were collaborating with Sri lankan schools like OIUCM, this seems to be an ambitious effort to go to places where nobody has gone before.

    All I know is that in spite of our opinions, cash is king here. If these programs can get enough cash, they can start buying universities that can grant accredited degrees and create a network of universities that just grant degrees based on the customer needs of time, subject and price.

    It looks like the trend to create network of global low cost universities will continue, they might have some legal limitations now but they seem to be determined to create a large network of universities that can be tailored to American looking for low cost education.
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    That is correct. A conversation with state authorities in Florida took care of that. You're welcome.
  3. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    "Cash is King". Well said. For relatively unknown and lower ranked schools the influx of cash is likely the motivator. Probably little outlay on their part if they are using sub contractors. Sub contractor makes money and the school gets a cut. I would be shocked if UCN academics read that guy's 700 page dissertation. I would guess it was approved by the "international branch" and the correct paperwork sent to UCN for approval and issuance.

    You are right that if the cash flow ever gets significant they could buy an accredited school having issues either in the US or elsewhere.

    In the meantime, UCN and Azteca are becoming internationally known in our small education focussed circle but not necessarily in the best sense. It is possible people earning UCN or Azteca degrees early on may have benefitted from the relative obscurity.
  4. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Well-Known Member

    These schools we have been discussing here are not top notch but they serve a niche for life-long learning, for a profile or ego boost, and for those who may want to get into teaching as an adjunct. The rising costs of education in first-world countries are really not worth it in my opinion when trying to boost a resume or CV. One should look into alternate forms of learning and professional certifications for industry work as anything over a Bachelor's degree for industry work is usually over kill. Degrees that are propio (own/private), state-authorized, exempt, or any other program accreditation that adds legitimacy to any type of reward or diploma serve a great purpose.

    Also, those who are trying to ever get full-time faculty or higher-level leadership roles in higher education should stick with traditional forms of learning for doctoral degrees. In other words, be prepared for 4 to 6 years of brick-in-mortar education above a Masters to be competitive. Everyone else, including myself, that is going the more distance, online, or progressive route should stick with industry work with the possibility of teaching, consulting, etc. on the side. For most people, it's not worth the 4 to 6 years of Doctoral work and sacrificing of income to go the traditional route so these progressive options while heavily criticized are still necessary.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2023
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  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes. definitely. But that doesn't make it RIGHT. The whole operation is riddled with chicanery -you've itemized the details pretty well.

    I think, in time, authorities will make a lot of it stop -- e.g. that call to Florida. It's VERY dangerous to piss off Ron DeSantis, so I hear. And once an investigation starts, on home turf -Mexico- as it very well might, Azteca may quickly run out of cash and fold. End of gravy train. And I hope when that happens, (not if) some "bad hombres" from the outfit will go to the old "juzgado" - por un largo, largo tiempo, if you know what I mean - and I believe you do. :)
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes, this bad stuff all happens. But it's simply not acceptable. I'm against the suggestion that we should just consider it the new reality and move on. I don't think we should, if ethics or principles are of any importance to us. However, I realize not everyone has principles. So - those who are untroubled by the principles and ethics involved in this - fire away. Who wants to take the first shot?
  7. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    A quick and unscientific Google search appears to suggest that most of these honoraryish DLitt/DSc degrees are going to Arab and East Indian clientele.
  8. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Well-Known Member

    Even more interesting is that there are other Doctorates that Azteca offers which include Doctor of Individual Studies, Doctor of Advanced Studies, Doctor of Environmental Studies, and Doctor of Professional Studies. There is a validation program for Doctor of Competence Studies as well. No one would likely choose these but all of them are different titles with identical requirements with most of these.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Personally, I've only discussed one, and it sells degrees in return for no academic work.
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  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I bet I could even get a "Doctor of Doctoral Studies" degree. 'You pay, we print.'
  11. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    In Mexico, these degrees are just paper as they have no official recognition. Technically, Azteca is not violating the law, if you read these degrees transcripts, they state that are not officially recognized. In Mexico, universities offer diplomas that serve as continuing education with no official recognition. Azteca offers the same but tags them "Doctor of Science" to make them attractive.

    However, with the right amount of cash, they can make these degrees real. They can buy a school in an exotic place like Cambodia and just grant degrees from there. A similar outfit in Cambodia is City University, in some countries laws are not so clear when it comes to degree granting authority. City University can just take the Doctor of Science degrees and make them real in Cambodia.

    They already have their hands in Sri Lanka with OIUCM, with the right cash, this school might eventually become officially recognized there. Sri Lanka is a place with so much corruption that I don't doubt that Azteca is putting their hands there because they probably know that they can set up a degree shop.

    I agree that the network is not really academic oriented but cash oriented. There is not much research or academic contribution from Azteca, they seem to be there to just to make cash. But there is not much different with UoP and other profit American schools.
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes there is. The US schools are, at least, properly and lawfully accredited to teach what they do, in their own country. And they're not allowed to promote quackery and do harm by giving out diplomas in goofy, unproven (or disproven) outer-space nonsense. Some of these "professors" and their grads don't even know the difference between protons and photons, in their own babble - and continually use the terms as if they were interchangeable. I've read and heard enough examples to know this (and plenty more besides.)

    I don't like your vision of an "anything goes" world. I prefer mine, where none of that sh#! belongs.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
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  13. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    A very smart way to find you the right product based on your profile. I need a doctorate but I don't have research or ability to write a thesis, I can offer you a Doctor of Professional Studies and sell you this product based on letters of reference of your outstanding contribution to the professional field.

    You are right, some people cannot afford the 4 to 5 years in school but yet need to support a family with an adjunct career. These are vulnerable people because they need a doctorate just to keep getting work in a world that keeps demanding more for less. If I am already in my 50s and have made my career as an adjunct professor, I would invest the money in Azteca if I get a doctorate that can get me the NACES certificate.
  14. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    It is not what I like or not like, it is what I observe. Northcentral university (US) offered unaccredited PhDs for many years before it became accredited. Please check this forum for discussions about them. They were many people that hated them because they were not accredited and they were issuing PhDs, the reality is that you need cash to be accredited so they were selling PhDs at the time at 5K and now the same degrees are selling for 60K.

    It is not a world of justice or ethics but cash. Azteca is not doing anything different than Northcentral, you can hate them all you want but accreditation needs cash and it needs to come from somewhere. They are not selling these PhDs or DSc as accredited doctorates but propio doctorates, just the same way Northcentral did before they became accredited.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I could NOT disagree with this more.

    No one has EVER accused the University of Phoenix of selling degrees. There is a huge difference between charging for education and selling a degree. It's not even close. (NB: I was a full-time faculty member for UoP for a year 20 years ago and an adjunct for two more after that.)

    One can debate the notion of a for-profit university, but slandering it with this is irresponsible. For-profit universities have a lot more in common with not-for-profit universities than they do these degree-selling outfits. What an absurd assertion!
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  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    No. Just no. Not at all.
    This is libelous. No one has ever credibly accused Northcentral of selling degrees of any kind. Not now, not then, not ever.

    Northcentral University started out like almost all new schools: unaccredited. (The exceptions are those schools that start out as a part of another accredited school.) This was true of Capella, Walden, Union, UoP, and just about any other school commonly discussed here. It is the norm.

    Northcentral was established in 1996 and received full accreditation (after a candidacy period) in 2003. This is utterly normal. What was shocking was Northcentral becoming the second fully non-residential school awarding doctorates, but that was the HLC's call. Nothing seems out-of-the-ordinary, however.
    This is demonstrably false. I challenge you to produce any evidence of anything that resembles what Azteca is doing with its "higher doctorates" and "honorary doctorates."

    Further, I challenge you to produce any evidence that Northcentral was EVER operating outside its legal framework, especially awarding degrees it was not approved to award. Yes, it operated in a pre-accredited status which almost all new schools do. There was nothing abnormal about their start-up, operation, or march to accreditation. Implying otherwise is false. Prove it.
    Yes, from investors (in the case of for-profit schools. Not from selling degrees. This, again, is false and slanderous.
    It is NOT the same. Not at all. Azteca IS selling degrees, as I've pointed out. But even if some of the "propio" doctorates they offer are earned, they are beyond the scope of their approval. That might be legal (or tolerated) in Mexico, but it doesn't make it right, especially when that distinction doesn't exist in the U.S. and will likely be missed by most who consider the value of the degree. And no one asserts that these "proprio" degrees are part of some pre-accredited process, one that will eventually be recognized after proving itself. This is exactly what accredited schools in the US go through. This is true for both for-profit schools (like Walden is and Northcentral was) and not-for-profit schools (like Union and Fielding).

    Sorry, but that post was not only filled with wild assessments, those assessments were based on false and libelous assertions.

    None of this resembles Northcentral--or any other start up
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  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    No they didn't. And certainly not for "Many years." Here's an excerpt from the timeline, direct from NCU page:
    • 1997 – Northcentral University enrolls its first student.
    • 1998 – Northcentral University is granted a provisional degree-granting license by the State of Arizona Board for Private Postsecondary Education.
    • 2000 – Northcentral University hosts its first commencement ceremony, on June 17, for graduates from 1999and 2000.
    • 2003 – Northcentral University becomes institutionally accredited by the Higher Learning Commission (HLC) of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools (NCA).
    Your assertion is patently false. As proven by Rich's timely, eloquent and accurate response, while I was still writing this.
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  18. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    NorthCentral was the second University to be founded by Dr. Donald Hecht. Earlier, in 1978, he founded SCUPS - Southern California University for Professional Studies. That University, though it remained unaccredited for almost 29 years, played by the California rules, which were, back then, quite extensive for such institutions. There was no suggestion ever of "selling" degrees or the like.

    SCUPS finally became DEAC accredited in 2007 and the name was changed to California Southern U. In 2022, the school was acquired by the American Intercontinental University System.

    Yours truly almost enrolled in SCUPS in 1989 or 1990. Can't for the life of me remember how I became aware of the school. Likely, from a print ad. There was Internet, of a sort, at the time -but no Web yet. I received a catalog and was interested, so I phoned. I wanted to see what sort of credit I could get for my brand-new Canadian Community College diploma.

    I sent them a transcript and they got back to me pretty promptly, saying they'd allow 68 credits. I was pretty pleased. That was the best offer I'd had. The diploma added up to 76 credits - and I knew some other Universities - US and Western Canada would give me around 60 at best, 45 at the least. Two good schools across the border would give me two years' time served plus a 50% scholarship. Still expensive, but they were very fine schools indeed. I couldn't take up the offer; it was for full-time study only - and I still had three or four years to "sweat out my sentence" at work, before I could retire.The Canadian schools around where I lived would give me ZERO credit. Ontario Universities were terrible about that, back in the day. Their progress since has not matched Alberta's or British Columbia's either.

    I can't quite put my finger on why I didn't go to SCUPS. Yes, the unaccredited status had something to do with it - but it was probably more a fear of distance - not distance learning itself, but just that 3,000 mile space between me and the University. I ended up waiting till 1993 when I retired - and attending my local Uni at night. Instruction was great and I had zero academic problems - but I have mixed feelings about the decision. It was costly, there were some administration wrangles and predictably (back then) I got ZERO
    credit for my College diploma. They even made me take Accounting 101 again. For weird reasons, I've been made to take that FOUR times in my life; each time I got an "A." The usual reply when I objected was "Yes, but you didn't take it HERE." There's no dealing with an attitude like that.

    I probably should have gone with SCUPS. But -- I did OK here. All the money I spent here has been back in my savings for a long time. There were no Student Loans involved. Ever. But I will never attend any Ontario University again. Even though my local Uni. offers free tuition - with a thousand caveats - to those over 65. Western Canada - different story. If (doubtful) I ever go back to a Canadian University -- it'll be in the West.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2023
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  19. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I should add. Cal. Southern is no longer a DEAC school. It's RA now - HLC. Dang that timer.
  20. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I can now. It was from a book by Dr. John Bear, in the local library. Not the famous "Guide" but another work - a guide 100% specific to Unaccredited Schools. Some inspired faith - others fear. Dr. Bear was a master at "telling it like it is." SCUPS sounded interesting - and was in the better end of the rating system, IIRC.

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