Accreditation/State Authorization

get over it torry for your own good. i spent two months looking at century and other similar schools that conveyed like they were OK and that graduates from their programs would fair as well as other graduates. Actually, they wouldn't fair close; whatever you say and whatever you do, you just go ahead and get your century qualification, and then get out into the real world. When you do and have learned from experience, pop back here and apologise to Rich Douglas for your remarkds to him. I'm not biased to Rich, I have just seen so many facts the CENTURY IS A WASTE OF TIME. But you go ahead and use your qualification from there in the real world. It's at your own risk. You have been warned....

David

 

Exemplary statement, Rich. It is my perception that the average person has little understanding about the details of accreditation, degree recognition, etc. This is not stated in arrogance, for neither did I ten years ago. If someone had approached me at that time with a Ph.D. from Trinity C&U, I would have thought it was as valid as Duke.

John Bear's books, as well as "Name It Frame It," opened up (for me at least) a world I did not know existed--one of fake schools, less-than-wonderful schools, academic deception and fraud, cheap and worthless degrees, etc. The more I read, researched, dialogued, etc., the more prevalent I realized this problem was. And you are certainly correct in stating that one of the main reasons such entities are able to exist at all is because of ignorance.

Russell

 

Originally posted by Rich Douglas:
It is clear you cannot distinguish between what is and what should be. The two notions, that Century is a bad school and that Century graduates find their degrees useful are not contradictory. They are complimentary, and sad.

It is also clear that you simply do not have ample evident to back up your original claim: The change in California Education codes that caused Century to skip state line. I'm more interested in seeing actual data, not your flawed, biased, "logic."

Now, you're getting yourself into more shit. You claim that Century's graduates find their degrees to be pretty much "useless." I could believe you if you can present your facts and data again. Your research with John Bear, which involved testing college registrars nationwide, does not, and cannot imply that Century degrees are almost "useless" in the working world. Century has been operating since the 70's, it is likely that it meets the needs of many students.

Schools like Century--along with the degree mill cousins--thrive because of ignorance. Ignorance on the part of employers, applicants/students/graduates, and the general public. That is hardly a legacy upon which a good school should be built, but it is the only measure of value available to Century; it successfully fools people.

You even asserted, in the past, as a "human resource personel," that many employers either don't know or "don't care." And yet now you say Century degrees are not recognized because of a prospective employer's ignorance??? What a joke! I wonder what made you "asserted" that statement that you posted at AED, and what made you suddenly become a RA fan. Your post from AED was only 2 years old. So, did you work for ALL the companies, or say, a few hundred of them, which then led you to conclude that Century degrees are almost useless in the workplace? I questioned that, because you seem to favor emipircal observation.

It is reasonable for students and gradutes of Century to desire that their school be shown in the most positive light possible. But it is not reasonable for them to twist the truth, ignore the irrefutable evidence, and make as hominem attacks. But that, too, is typical of Century's more vocal supporters.3

There were not any attacks, none personal, none directed at anyone. I'm defending Century University only. You started acting hostile when I questioned your logic, your previous post at AED (which, by your stated denial of responsiblity, already shows that some people obviously do not value morality much)and your statements about Century University in general. Specifically, I did not compare California and New Mexico Education Code; I wanted to know what made you favored schools like California Coast, California Pacific (I read what you wrote about Dr. Dalton at AED, btw), when doctorates can be completed in 9 months with no dissertation. Century University's doctoral coursework, I repeat, does require coursework AND a dissertation, a point which you never seem to get.[/B]

It is not relevant to compare the relative rigors of New Mexico and California state approval processes. Century has never been subject to either one. And if New Mexico decided to apply its new standards to its old, unaccredited schools like Century, you would most certainly see another change of address.

Very much like MIGS, go on...

I did not say you set me up; you are hardly capable of that. I said you set up your own arguments, then fail to refute them. This is akin to having a boxer enter a ring unopposed, yet still lose the fight.

I can set you up anyday, as can anybody else can. Here, you already started drifting away and started attacking me, rather than Century. Since you brought it up, I hate to say anybody here, like Dr. Levicoff has in the past, can chew you up anyday, anytime.

That I do not address every single point in your extensive posts does not give them credence. Nor am I responsible for them; you are.

I know you're not responsible for your posts at AED. But have a bit of morals when you started to tell the world that you are a human resource director and that you are confident enough to suggest the notion that a vast majority of employers do not care, or do not know about unaccredited degrees.

There is no way to convince people associated with such a fraud that they are in the wrong. It is futile to try; this isn't such an attempt. The facts are available to anyone who is willing to examine them:

Unaccredited school. Never had it in more than 20 years of operation.

I'm glad you know that it's not a fly-by-nite institution.

Operates with no public or private oversight.

I disagree, it's approved by the New Mexico Commission on Higher Education. Faculty credentials, credit hours..etc, are all part of the approval process. Do some research first before being a storyteller.

Sham accreditation claims.

I don't know your definition of sham, but it states clearly in the catalogue that it is not recognized by US DOE.

Tiny faculty, six of 13 holding their doctorates from Century University. The school claims to have awarded more than 10,000 degrees. If true, that's approximately two every business day over the past two decades. That's almost 40 per faculty member per year.

So you want me to stop bringing in UoP and CCHS, now I bring you Bellevue University. There's about 6 professors in their business faculty.

Founder with no earned doctorate.

So what, so if you don't have one than you're bullshit?


And none of these things is in dispute. Nice.

Likewise

Torry

 

Originally posted by Rich Douglas:
It is clear you cannot distinguish between what is and what should be. The two notions, that Century is a bad school and that Century graduates find their degrees useful are not contradictory. They are complimentary, and sad.

It is also clear that you simply do not have ample evident to back up your original claim: The change in California Education codes that caused Century to skip state line. I'm more interested in seeing actual data, not your flawed, biased, "logic."

Now, you're getting yourself into more shit. You claim that Century's graduates find their degrees to be pretty much "useless." I could believe you if you can present your facts and data again. Your research with John Bear, which involved testing college registrars nationwide, does not, and cannot imply that Century degrees are almost "useless" in the working world. Century has been operating since the 70's, it is likely that it meets the needs of many students.

Schools like Century--along with the degree mill cousins--thrive because of ignorance. Ignorance on the part of employers, applicants/students/graduates, and the general public. That is hardly a legacy upon which a good school should be built, but it is the only measure of value available to Century; it successfully fools people.

You even asserted, in the past, as a "human resource personel," that many employers either don't know or "don't care." And yet now you say Century degrees are not recognized because of a prospective employer's ignorance??? What a joke! I wonder what made you "asserted" that statement that you posted at AED, and what made you suddenly become a RA fan. Your post from AED was only 2 years old. So, did you work for ALL the companies, or say, a few hundred of them, which then led you to conclude that Century degrees are almost useless in the workplace? I questioned that, because you seem to favor emipircal observation.

It is reasonable for students and gradutes of Century to desire that their school be shown in the most positive light possible. But it is not reasonable for them to twist the truth, ignore the irrefutable evidence, and make as hominem attacks. But that, too, is typical of Century's more vocal supporters.3

There were not any attacks, none personal, none directed at anyone. I'm defending Century University only. You started acting hostile when I questioned your logic, your previous post at AED (which, by your stated denial of responsiblity, already shows that some people obviously do not value morality much)and your statements about Century University in general. Specifically, I did not compare California and New Mexico Education Code; I wanted to know what made you favored schools like California Coast, California Pacific (I read what you wrote about Dr. Dalton at AED, btw), when doctorates can be completed in 9 months with no dissertation. Century University's doctoral coursework, I repeat, does require coursework AND a dissertation, a point which you never seem to get.

It is not relevant to compare the relative rigors of New Mexico and California state approval processes. Century has never been subject to either one. And if New Mexico decided to apply its new standards to its old, unaccredited schools like Century, you would most certainly see another change of address.

Very much like MIGS, go on...

I did not say you set me up; you are hardly capable of that. I said you set up your own arguments, then fail to refute them. This is akin to having a boxer enter a ring unopposed, yet still lose the fight.

I can set you up anyday, as can anybody else can. Here, you already started drifting away and started attacking me, rather than Century. Since you brought it up, I hate to say anybody here, like Dr. Levicoff has in the past, can chew you up anyday, anytime.

That I do not address every single point in your extensive posts does not give them credence. Nor am I responsible for them; you are.

I know you're not responsible for your posts at AED. But have a bit of morals when you started to tell the world that you are a human resource director and that you are confident enough to suggest the notion that a vast majority of employers do not care, or do not know about unaccredited degrees.

There is no way to convince people associated with such a fraud that they are in the wrong. It is futile to try; this isn't such an attempt. The facts are available to anyone who is willing to examine them:

Unaccredited school. Never had it in more than 20 years of operation.

I'm glad you know that it's not a fly-by-nite institution.

Operates with no public or private oversight.

I disagree, it's approved by the New Mexico Commission on Higher Education. Faculty credentials, credit hours..etc, are all part of the approval process. Do some research first before being a storyteller.

Sham accreditation claims.

I don't know your definition of sham, but it states clearly in the catalogue that it is not recognized by US DOE.

Tiny faculty, six of 13 holding their doctorates from Century University. The school claims to have awarded more than 10,000 degrees. If true, that's approximately two every business day over the past two decades. That's almost 40 per faculty member per year.

So you want me to stop bringing in UoP and CCHS, now I bring you Bellevue University. There's about 6 professors in their business faculty.

Founder with no earned doctorate.

So what, so if you don't have one than you're bullshit?


And none of these things is in dispute. Nice.

Likewise

Torry

 

You say you don't attack personally, then you say I don't value morality.

I didn't say Century degrees were worthless in the workplace. I said the opposite! But their value comes from fooling people, not in the truth. BTW: Century degrees are worthless academically. I know of no accredited college or university that as a matter of policy accepts credits and degrees from Century.

If it is your desire that Century be held in the same esteem as California Coast and California Pacific, then Century should submit itself to at least the same level of scrutiny those schools face. But it does not. (And it is a very low bar indeed.)

It does not operate under the current New Mexico approval process. To deny this is a lie. (I am not suggesting the poster is a liar.)

I certainly don't understand all the a.e.d. stuff Torry spews. I used to post there (like many of us on this board) and now I do not (ditto). What's the mystery in that?

Yes, I was the Human Resources Director of a prison in Washington, DC. I've since moved on to bigger and better-paying things. Big deal.

Again, I've asserted that the main reason degrees from schools like Century have utility in the workplace is because they fool people into thinking the degree holders have real college degrees. They do not.

Interesting that "Torry" doesn't reveal who he/she is, and resorts to name-calling and vulgarities to support Century. That's about right.

Because "Torry" can hide behind his/her facade and say anything he/she wants, it serves no purpose to debate him/her. I say "left" and am quoted as saying "right." What's the point? Century is still an awful school with no legitimate form of recognition (but longstanding recognition from a scamming accrediting agency).

Rich Douglas

 

Exactly Rich, in this there is no point. Torry will go on with you as long as you are willing to feed him/her. This is not a debate it is avoidance. If it Century looks like a duck and quacks...well, you know how it goes. And so does most everyone else, regardless of how experienced they are at rationalizations.

As you indicate, Century is unaccredited and is unaccepted in the accredited academic world. These points are valid and undebatable. But remember, this is not a debate.

 

One point that Rich has *not* mentioned that, I think, brings even more credence to his argument:

Rich and John Bear are compliling and analyzing data collected directly from the registrars of hundreds of regionally accredited schools. Almost *none* of those registrars will accept credits or degrees earned from unaccredited schools such as Century. That is solid, unbiased data collected from a sampling of legitimately accredited schools throughout the US.

As to employers accepting Century degrees: There are quite a few people holding Columbia State degrees. This school is beyond all question a complete fraud. Yet many employers hired employees based on their Columbia State degrees.

Why?

Because they were unaware that Columbia State is a fraud. When Good Morning America showed up on the doorstep of some of these grad holders, all lost their jobs almost immediately afterwards. There are many similar cases of other unaccredited schools causing loss of jobs and ruined reputations once the truth about the worthlessness of the degree became apparent.

The really sad thing about this thread is that Torrey doesn't seem to realize that his/her pathetic, off-the-point attempts to defend Century are simply further evidence of the substandard nature of the school. Anyone who reads this thread and still believes that Century has *any* redeeming qualities whatsoever is either brain-dead, in complete denial, utterly clueless, or all three.

BTW: Both Rich and John are quite respected as authorities on DL. They do not speak of things without solid data and information to back up their statements. That is why no one has ever successfully sued either of them for their statements about Century or any other school... because the truth is an affirmative defense to charges of libel and defamation.

 

Why? Indeed. Chip, you may not like Century switching state registrations, their ACI accreditation claims, or whatever else. But to compare them with Columbia State, and proceed to lump all UDGIs together is a bit ludicrous.

And the old mud slinging is truly pathetic. It's the same old song: "You and your school are stewwpid!" Followed inevitably by "No, it's not! Yeww are! And so's your school!" And so on and so on, like the proverbial battery bunny.

It's obvious that Torry loves her school. There's an old public service advertisement that is still used frequently by the Military Times newspapers: "Support the Schools and Colleges of Your Choice." Why can't we all just get along and agree to disagree after the subject has been kicked around 99 times? It seems that some won't rest unless UDGI supporters like Torry and/or the school he/she supports are verbally tarred and feathered. Must give someone a smug feeling of self righteous satisfaction. Please remember the Torries (I love that name! evokes counter revolutionary images) in this group have feelings too.

Of course, some are on the grand crusade to ensure that no one is "misled" into going other than RA. Even if the charges have appeared in countless threads, they must be immediately repeated, cumulatively leading to a drumbeat of the prevailing mantra of "Don't go there, oh poor distance ed neophyte! Many have fallen by the wayside! Stick with the crowd, and play it safe, or woe be unto you!"

Torry, if you're learning something valuable at Century, and your employer recognizes that, by your excellence on the job, don't let the naysayers and harbingers of doom stray you at all. You and your employer have the right to choose, and no one should smear either of you for your informed decision. Century is legal, you're legal, and your employer is well within their rights in this country that allows the maximum freedom to choose. Keep your cool with the vitriolic onslaught. Stay above the low level of attacks. But "you go, Terry!"

Gary

 

Torry,

If you are learning something valuable at Century, and your employer recognizes your "learning," then by all means rejoice in that. If, however, you choose to utilize the Century degree (as opposed to just the "learning" from a Century program) on your CV, or try to secure a position based on the degree, I think you will find that in most cases you will be disappointed. The Century degree may have some limited utility, but as has been stated, it will not enjoy broad recognition.

Russell

 

I've examined your "facts" and I'll dispute your "things" Rich. From the top of your Top Ten List:

Unaccredited status is not a crime. Century will prosper another score of years, unless the rabid minority perturbed by such schools stirs up the apathetic majority of degree holders in a pogrom to outlaw all Unaccredited Degree Granting Institutions (UDGIs).

The state does regulate any business concerning consumer fraud. And although Century was grandfathered, the more minimal standards Century previously met and continues to meet, even if it was simply a business license, carries with it the oversight concerning general business practices. As for private oversight, even if ACI does none, Century and the consumers police themselves. Hardly "no" oversight. Not what you'd like, but some.

"Sham" accreditation claims are overblown by many. The tired old Arnold the Pig, Three Stooges, etc. saga of ACI's forerunner is wearing thin. It's guilt by past association, a distance ed McCarthyism that is often used also by anti-degreeinfo spammers on AED. Many posters agree with your thesis that all unrecognized accreditation claims have a sole purpose of fooling the accreditation-naive. My antithesis is that it is simply another form of standard marketing "puffery." That is the marketing tactic of legally claiming that one's product is "the best", "the greatest," or the "softest" the "most comfortable" or similar subjective claims that can't be proven or disproven. Just "puffery." If the RA club, DETC club, or other recognized accrediting groups of peer reviewers can claim that member schools are (in effect) "the greatest," the UDGIs, together or individually, have a concurrent right to do the same. If anyone is "fooled" by this marketing "puffery" it is similar to anyone being fooled by the "most comfortable" shoes not being the right fit for their size feet. Such accreditation "puffery" should be accompanied by some disclaimer, of course, a practice Century does comply with.

Another "sham" charge concerning government recognition. Did you listen to a lot of Sham the Man and the Pharoghs? (Wooly Bully!) (Watch it now, watch it now, here it comes!) The USDOE listing does have meaning. Not as much as you would like, but meaning. It means that the USDOE has recognized Century and other UDGIs as legal educational entities in the U.S.A. at the time of the survey. Just as legal as the RA schools listed also. No more, no less. Unless the school has been shut down since the survey, charges of "sham," "fraud," or "mill" ring hollow. The repeated charge of "no" oversight by New Mexico was answered above.

Doctoral degrees possible in 9 months with dissertation but no coursework. What a shocking concept! Century is a real ground breaker here. Absolutely no precedence among more expensive schools here. Riiight, Rich. You can't tell me Buffy WASP's daddy can't donate her way into one of the many "rule bending" scenarios Dr. Bear so aptly described in his Guide. If daddy's got the money, Buffy will get her degree, just as quick as Daddy can whip out his checkbook. And I see no reason, if someone can write a dissertation in nine months that they cannot achieve the same goal with less money than Buffy has access to. It's not exactly overnight: Buffy could have her baby, conceived with a Century graduate (wait 'till Daddy finds out, he may take the T-Bird away!) in that time.

The too-many-terminal degrees from UDGI in-house argument has always amazed me. If the UDGI eschews recognized accreditation, this ratio should not matter to anyone. A mix of some sort does show that the UDGI is not excessively insular, but there's no magic ratio. Much ado about not much of a charge.

Another shocker in the Douglas expose! Century has as many as 40 students per professor. Such enormous class sizes have never been seen in the RA groves of academe. Riiight, Rich. Some RA classes in very expensive schools feature auditorium size classes that dwarf the 40 to 1 ratio.

The "founder has no earned doctorate", does not equate to "the emperor has no clothes." Dr. Jerry Falwell, "emperor" and founder of the RA Liberty University, has none either, yet Liberty does pretty well. This did make ten points to your "fact checker" deal, so it could be called a Top Ten List! Nice.

Gary

 

Not quite. From the NCES:
Warning: An institution's inclusion in IPEDS COOL does NOT imply approval of the
institution or its programs by the U.S. Department of Education.
and:
It is a single, comprehensive system that encompasses all identified institutions whose primary purpose is to provide postsecondary education.

All of the information in the IPEDS database is supplied by the institution and unverified by the DoE. This raises the still unanswered question of how Century was listed in the 1997 survey, NCES 98-299, as having North Central accreditation.



------------------
Bill Gossett

 

Another unanswered question: Five or six years ago, there was advertised a Guide to Alternative Education, which positioned itself as a more accurate and more current than Bears' Guide. This book (no publisher or author was listed, but it cost thirty bucks) identified Century University as one of the best schools in America. And a couple of weeks after the book arrived, buyers received promotional literature from Century University. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

 

Well John and Rich are spot on. Why dispute Torry? You are obviously worried about something to do with Century. (my guess is credibility).

Everyone that wants to study with Century, go ahead and do so. Carry on, it's your time and money that your using (and wasting).

You'll only learn from firsthand experience. So go ahead, stop the banter and start your studies there, and you'll realise, to your loss, in years to come that you would have been better off not going there.

Good Luck Torry - you will need it unfortunately, if you study with Century .

David

 

Gary's responses are more of the typical millspeak. I won't take the time to respond to each individually, but here are a couple:

1. The notion of Century's representing its fraudulent accreditation as "marketing puffery" is nonsense. It is a willful and intentional act on the part of Century that has no purpose other than to deceive the prospective student for the purpose of hoodwinking them into thinking that the school's programs are accredited, and therefore meet specific quality standards when, in fact, they do not meet any quality standards.

2. The implication that ACI is in any way more rigorous or honest than its predecessor IAC is a complete joke. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this notion, and plenty of evidence (the schools claiming ACI accreditation, for one) to indicate that things are no different than they have ever been.

3. Your inaccurate statement about student to instructor ratios at private schools is a clear indication that you have little understanding of academia.

When one is taking a freshman introductory course, such as Psychology 100 or Biology 100 or some such, the course material, whether at Harvard or at East Horsebreath Community College, is relatively static. Little or no individual attention is required. So these classes are effectively taught in a lecture setting with reading assignments.

But the same schools also have 300 and 400 level classes that often have 5, 8, maybe 10 students tops, and many students do private readings and individual study. So the overall average teacher to student ratio at a selective school might be 1 to 8 or 1 to 10, for example, in spite of introductory lecture classes.

At the doctoral level, however, the student is supposed to be doing new, original research. There is no way that any meaningful mentorship, guidance, analysis of research methods, or any of the other advanced learning and study that takes place at the doctoral level between faculty advisor(s) and student can occur when a given faculty member has 40 advisees and graduates a student every three days. Not possible.

At most schools, a doctoral candidate has a team of faculty advisors, and these individuals typically take on very few students, because of the time and effort required. At Century, the tiny faculty in ratio to the students indicates a ratio of 1 faculty member to 40 doctoral candidates, and that assumes a single advisor for each candidate. It is simply not possible to have a student attain the level of knowledge that is gained in the equivalent RA program with those sort of demands on the faculty.

Again, my point stands. The more a mill apologist attempts to defend his or her chosen mill (whichever one it happens to be), the more he or she proves the point of the opposing side.

Keep going, you're just helping to convince more people to stay away from Century, which is a good thing.

 

Was it 10 points? Gee, I wasn't paying attention. This means far less to me than to those connected with Century. I'm just interested in truth; I don't have a horse in the race. But even those who do are certainly entitled to defend Century. It only goes to further demonstrate just what a big lie it all is.

Rich Douglas


From http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary :

Sham
Function: noun
Etymology: perhaps from English dialect sham shame, alteration of English shame
Date: 1677
1 : a trick that deludes : HOAX
2 : cheap falseness : HYPOCRISY
3 : an ornamental covering for a pillow
4 : an imitation or counterfeit purporting to be genuine
5 : a person who shams

Maybe Century's degrees are ornamental coverings for pillows. But my money's on the other four definitions.

 

Gary, I commend you for speaking out, especially in defense of our freedom of choice of choosing our individual needs.

Russell, thank you for your constructive comment. I am an adult, and I realize the shortcomings of Century University. I'm learning something, and I am, and will never simply buy a degree. I will stay at Century, because I find their coursework to be legitimate. Of course, I cannot convince people like Mr. Douglas that there is academic rigor in Century's programs, and likewise, I can't support that because I cannot post my homework and the instructor's comments and criticism here.

What I was trying to say, was that Century University does have the appropriate academic rigor in its programs. Never had I suggested that the properly accredited institutions are not good, nor had I ever emphasized that the proper accreditation of a school is not important. I am a 38yr old adult, and I'm not as naive or stupid as Mr. Douglas thinks.

But the response I have been getting from this forum, with the exception of Russell and Gary, is very saddening. I mentioned Russell because he specifically emphasized that "if I'm learning something, or if I'm almost towards the end of the program, then I should stay." It's better than reading comic books at home, or to blindly select books on computer science at the library as some have suggested. Where do I seek help everytime when I'm stuck on a rut? Are you telling me that any individual out there can design his/her entire degree program by simply picking the right textbooks and do the assignments at the back of the book and have the same knowledge as a state authorised university graduate who followed a scheduled curriculum with faculty guidance and advice?

I challenged the logic of Mr. Douglas, specifically on the errors he has made. First, he has emphasized that Calif Education Code is more rigorous than that of New Mexico's. And if so, why would a California Coast D.B.A. requires no disseration and a defense when Century's doctoral programs do so. To this day, I have not heard an answer, but rather "there's no need for me to compare it...I don't have to." In addition, when he came to question the doctoral course requirements at Century, he still did not admit that he did not do his own research as Century's doctorates will not be awarded if no coursework is taken. Next, he goes Century has NO guidelines of any type (see his previous posts). I'm sorry to say you are dead wrong again as the NMCHE demands Century to have properly-credentialed faculty, coursework rigor, and specific credit hours requirements. Are these not any guidelines, when compared to Montana's Columbia Pacific, or the phony Columbia State? These questions, along with my doubts to his assertions are caused by his statements. I therefore challenged his logic. If Mr. Douglas would like to challenge me on why Century produced a phony "distance learning guide" that gave its own blessing,or why Century is accredited by ACI, please call Century to find out. I did not make these statements, because I'm only a student at Century.

This further leads to why Mr. Douglas claimed that "I was setting him up, or insulted me that I was not capable of setting him up," "I was hiding behind something and I'm not using my name," or that I was "attacking him." Don't attack me, attack Century should you desire to do so.

I knew this forum was not ready for constructive comments. For one, Chip the adminstrator came storming in and stated that my arguments are "pathetic." I hate to say, if you'd like to discriminate against the state authroized university students or graduates, please state so on your Terms of Condition. This is a discussion forum, where many discussions take place. I am confident that you will not find every discussion as constructive or beneficial as it is to you. If the start of every argument requires your approval, I say let's all get out, since this is no honking discussion forum.

Torry