Looming slaughter in Gaza

Radical Islam, never softens their stance, they may delay their actions, but when the opportunity presents they will be ready for it.
Israel is it is is in exestictual fight since it creation.
Palestinians want the right to return, this leaves no room for Jews in this land.
Thanks to US support Israel will be or is getting veapons that will allow them to destroy deep underground bunkers and tunnels.
War is he'll and civilians always suffer.
Fanatics Religisly motivated wars,promote people extermination without mercy to any one.

 

No. It may or may not leave room for Palestinians, because Israel isn't going anywhere.

Two-state solution, folks. It's the only way.

 

Land to small, what will happen to Israeli Arabs/Palestinians?
Israelis in settlements in what may become Palestine state.
I at this time not sure why Palestinian state that will have their own army, airforce etc -hostile to Israel is posible? They may agree to this as a step on the way to destroy Israel.
Not sure if it's posible to have two state solution.
There was time I thought it's a solution but not seeing this at this time.
Also Palestinians don't want one state, they prefer multiple states/emirates.
Will Jordan be part of the partition?
Alot to work, and negotiating, the right to return, Jerusalem etc.
At this time Israel will not go back to Gaza relationship as before the Saturday massacre. They plan to destroy Hamas.

 

Sure but neither Hamas nor Israel actually want the other to have a state.

In 1947, the Jewish Agency for Palestine, the proto-state of Israel, accepted the U.N. plan for the partition of Mandatory Palestine. The various Arab authorities rejected it and instead chose war, as they would many times in the future.

Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai as land for peace in 1979 and offered some part of the Golan Heights which Syria rejected.

Nevertheless, a large part of the current governing coalition is dedicated to supporting the settler movement and expanding to take over the entire area "from the river to the sea" so there have always been Israelis who didn’t want peace. That's why the Israeli government not only tolerates settlements beyond the Green Line but subsidizes them.

As far as Hamas, peace and coexistence has never been their goal and never will be.

So no, a two state solution is nothing but a glimmering in the eyes of the West. It will not work on the ground. It didn't work in 1947 and it won't work in 2047.

 

Sellers belive they are liberating Israeli land.

There was larger area/land given to Israel in 1920 and arguably by a higher authority then UN.

In San Remo, the League of Nations decided to turn much of the former Ottoman Empire into new nation-states: Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Jordan all emerged from this process, along with Israel.

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/100-years-since-san-remo-when-israel-became-a-sovereignty-626497

 

In fact, there's evidence to suggest that the Jewish Agency wouldn't have agreed to the 1947 UN plan if they thought there was any chance the Arabs would accept it. I don't know if this is true and it may be impossible to tell one way or another by now.

 

If so (and I disagree), then Israel remains faced with this choice: be a Jewish state (and operate an apartheid) or be a democracy. It cannot be both.

 

Well, I would like to think you are right and that a two state solution is possible. We will see.

As to Jewish vs democratic, that is the fundamental contradiction underlying the Jewish State. It’s the reason Israel has not been able to adopt a constitution which in turn is the reason the Israeli Supreme Court has had to define its own authority. A large enough minority believes that the Court has overreached itself. That's the source of the unpopular judicial overall efforts that threaten the future of the State itself.

Israel has "muddled through" for decades but had the Hamas invasion not happened, secular authority might have collapsed.

 

In Muslim world there is a country that is Muslim and Democratic.
Israel can be Jewish and Democratic.
But there are multiple challenges.
Out of evil at times comes something that brings change.
After Holocaust of WW2 came Israel.
Unfortunatly life's lost can't be returned maybe this evil act will bring change, uniting Israel amd liberating Gaza residents from the arms of murdering Hamas to establish a friendlier leadership?
Hamas is calling for tomorrow Oct 13 to be uprising against Israelis all over.
https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-declares-friday-october-13-general-mobilization-day-al-aqsa-flood-operation-urges-west
Israeli
Foreign Ministry says Friday rallies could devolve into attacks on Jews;

 

If there were going to be effective action taken against Israel it would have started already. No one is coming to rescue Hamas. Not this time.

 

There is a claim, possibly propaganda but consistent with history, that Hamas' upper level leadership isn't even present in Gaza.

 

Can Israel be both democratic and Jewish? In Israel, the ultra orthodox rabbinate enjoys much authority over those citizens the rabbis consider Jewish and those businesses that cater to Jews. The rabbinate is paid by the State and receives and disburses funds to support their direct followers, many of whom do not work. The rabbis also ensure that their young men are exempt from the otherwise universal military draft and educate those young men in religious subjects but not secular subjects that might make them fit for employment. (Broad brushstrokes here; it's not this simple.)

Now if you believe that a modern constitutional democracy requires its citizenry to be treated as equal before the law without regard to religion or ethnicity, Israel cannot be regarded as a democracy at this point exactly because it IS the "Jewish State".

One fundamental question would have to be asked and answered for Israel to adopt a constitution along democratic lines and that is where does sovereignty reside? Is the ultimate source of legal authority the Torah as interpreted by the rabbis, similar to Iran? Or does sovereignty reside ultimately in the people as a whole as in the U.S. and most other modern democratic countries?

Israel has no written constitution because the religious and the secular majority disagree vehemently. That's also the real issue underlying the huge protests against the judicial overhaul though I don't know how many protesters understand it in quite those terms. What they DO understand is that judicial overhaul is intended to increase the power of the rabbis over their personal lives and they will not tolerate that.

 

So yes, Lerner, Israel could be both democratic and "Jewish" in the sense that the U.S. is Christian but not in the sense the country is the Jewish State now. It's half a theocracy and half a secular democracy.

 

Nope. A democratic country cannot be defined by a single religion. That would imply adherents to that faith were advantaged.

For Israel to be a democracy, they would have to give everyone equal rights. In a one-state solution, that must include Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights, as well as Israel. In that combined territory, Palestinians are already a majority. So are Arabs. (Palestinians are not all Arabs and Arabs in that area are not all Palestinians.)

So, if Israel really was one state, Arabs would outnumber Jews. But Israel wants to play this both ways. It wants to deny Palestine its sovereignty while also denying Palestinians full citizenship. And it wants to maintain a ghetto in Gaza seven times more populated than the Warsaw Ghetto during WWII.

None of this gets resolved with the (hypothetical) elimination of Hamas.

 

Correct.

 

Israel as Jewish Democratic state means
that a Jew is not only religeon but a nationality, a people like Arabs, the term Jew evolved to mean both religion and nation, such as when Ben-Gurion stated the Hebrew nation. Nationality of Israeli is to inclusive.

So just as Russia is for Russians, or China is for Chineese, Sweeden for Sweeds, Israel is for Jews.

All have minorities but national home for the nationality.
Israel has security needs, and such demand that hostile threths be destroyed.
No matter wich type of democracy it will be, first it needs to survive to be.

While we didn't define what it means "destroying" Hamas, it most likely means like ISIS was reduced/defeated in Syria, Iraq.
So even if there is separation of State and religion the nationality remain Jewish majority, with equal rights to minorities.

Israeli minorities are Arabs Muslim, Christian etc, being the largest.
All minorities have equal rights.
With exception of serving in military, due to the Arab/Israeli conflict.
BTW Hezbollah is also a threat to Israels existance that needs to be eliminated.
Egypt while the cold peace lasts, developed strong military and built 60+ bridges (violation to treaty) that can be used to ivade Israel, and the Egyptian Navy is also transformed in to mighty modern force etc.
Palestinian conflict resolution indeed is a key to security in the region, but how it's posible?

 

Lerner, JEWS don't have equal rights in Israel.

 

I should explain. The State of Israel has a definition of "Jew" for the Law of Return. The rabbis have a different definition of "Jew" for being married, buried or divorced.

Now I will give but a single example of the discrimination I'm talking about. If you are a foreigner and your mother was a Jew or you convert to Judaism in any recognized Jewish community, you are eligible to settle in Israel. But if your mother was Jewish and civilly divorced before you came along and your father was her second husband, you are probably a "bastard" under Jewish law and cannot marry a Jew (or anyone else except a convert or another bastard) in Israel. Keep in mind, Lerner. The rabbis and synagogues and other Jewish infrastructure in Israel is paid for by the State from tax money.

Israel is only half a democracy.

 

Understood, as the definition of who is Jew was not settled since the formation of the state.
As to how democratic is Israel, I think due to the Arab Israeli conflict and the different streams and not having constitution the young Israel is as democratic as it can be at this time.
There are many issues that need to be resolved, and the young democracy in that non democratic region has role models they try to follow.
Challenges since states creation show its a miracle the state exists at all.

 

Well, Israeli society was willing to "muddle along" with the status quo until Netanyahu decided he could be Prime Minister again by forming a coalition with the Uktra Right. He said he could "control" his partners but that was nonsense and everybody knew it. The next thing you know, the Knesset starts passing the judicial overhaul bills. Then came the gigantic protests and threats by reservists not to serve.

These issues are not resolved. Hamas merely caused them to be set aside for now.