what is really accredited?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by morleyl, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member


    I suppose I might be interpreted as a snob.

    You say the faculty is reasonably well educated. This might be true, but that doesn't necessarily qualify one to educate in Bible/Theology in the eyes of recognized accreditors. I do not see on that faculty one prof with an accredited PhD or ThD in Bible or Theology. I don't think there is an accredited ThM there either, but I may be wrong.

    Some may say it is snobbish to expect such. I disagree. GSST is a theologically fundamentalistic school. These academic qualifications for profs are criteria established by the theologically fundamentalistic accrediting bodies AABC and TRACS. DMins do not qualify one in the view of TRACS to teach grad Bible or Theology according to the executive director of TRACS and GSST knows that. I would be interested in hearing why anyone would think that these AABC/TRACS standards for profs are not better than unaccredited ones. But if they are better, then why not achieve them? What happened to, "Give of your best to the Master"?

    Biblical/Theological studies are among the most difficult of disciplines. I was in the EdD at OSU and did grad work in English at OSU. But these pale in rigor when compared to grasping K. Barth or using Greek grammaticisms in exegeting. I don't know, eg, of any other masters that require two languages, four years of fulltime work, a thesis, and the passing of comprehensive exams. But that is pretty much the ATS recommendations for the ThM.

    Theological education is difficult if it is held to the high standards seen even in national accreditors. With the abundant DL accredited programs now available in Theology and cognate areas , I just do not know why anyone would opt for the often substandard unaccredited programs.

    But, if that makes me a snob, oh well

  2. kansasbaptist

    kansasbaptist New Member

    Jack, You are absolutely correct!

    I never asked a direct question in the public forum, I asked my questions directly to the source in a PM.

    I did this because (and I knew better than to post in this thread) I did not want my motives, concerns, or issues to be twisted into something they are not. Just look at the tone of your response. You know nothing about me, what information I have been looking for, how many PM messages I sent, to whom they were sent, what was said and/or implied, or how frustrating it has been for me to obtain useful information.

    What is wrong with stating "I noticed you have only posted 8 times" as opposed to "I took the time to review your entire posting history (all 8 posts)". Just like most of the "experts" here, you seem hell-bent on antagonizing or at minimum belittling.

    I have neither the patience nor desire to enter into a mental sparring match. Quite frankly, in this forum "winning" the debate frequently becomes more important than embarking useful information.

    My apologies to all for taking up valuable space for such a riduculous exchange that serves no valuable purpose.
  3. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Come on everyone, lets play nice or I will have to make you guys stand in the corner. :D
  4. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

  5. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    See discussions on Bob Jones Univeristy and National Test Pilots School.

    BJU is unaccredited, and proudly so, but it is also well recognized and accepted (this is not my opinion which differs marekdly).

    NTPS is also hgihly thought of in it's area of expertise.
  6. kansasbaptist

    kansasbaptist New Member

    Mike's Resonse: You are correct, I should have made that clear.

    Mike's Resonse: I am neither, sir -- just posting my observations concerning your retort. I am not "afraid" of what others might think, in this particular case I thought I was following forum protocol.

    Mike's Resonse: I guess one could surmise that I was whining. However, I believe your comment helps support my previous post.

    Mike's Resonse: The debate this thread is based on -- did you limit your search/reading to only my comment?

    Mike's Resonse: Though I was apologizing to those who were subjected to reading this mindless drivel, not engaging in it; I guess one could conclude that you are included in "all"
  7. Frankie

    Frankie member

    The best way to apologize is to end the "mindless drivel." Remember, turn the other cheek.
  8. kansasbaptist

    kansasbaptist New Member


    Point taken, thank you.
  9. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    For the most part GSST has conventionally educated faculty although there is a shortage of accredited doctorates.

    The program of studies does require Biblical languages and appears to be a complete program.

    Whether it requires the rigor of other programs, who knows?

    I say it is not a bad program in comparison to other DL schools. There appear to be more unaccredited DL Christian schools and seminaries than there are accredited.

    Perhaps many of these schools are looking to create pastors and lay people with reasonable knowledge rather than creating academics.
  10. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member


    An excellent goal!

    But one which could be better done in accredited schools. Then too, that "reasonable knowledge" does not have to come wrapped in doctoral diplomas. That it frequently does suggests that the learning is academic in purpose.

    As the knowledge often does come so wrapped in doctoral diplomas, yet that knowledge so often is very far below par, suggests that the purpose of that study is not to really to learn, but to be called "Dr."
  11. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Anyone familiar with Christhomas Consortium London? They seem interesting. Their website seem to state fairly high standards of accreditation. I am just asking don't know much abou them
  12. galanga

    galanga New Member

    Christhomas Consortium London - Richard J. Hoyer connections

    You might consider looking at who they "accredit." They seem to have significant connections to enterprises with links to Richard J. Hoyer. Examples:

    "American Coastline University"

    According to the State of Hawaii Office of Consumer Protection, as of June 2002 ACU's "Mailing Forwarding Address" in Metairie, LA was a MailBoxes Etc. franchise, and that mail there was routed to P.O. Box 17673 in Rochester, NY. On Mr. Hoyer's web page advertizing his book "A College Degree In Your Spare Time" at http://www.4acollegedegree.com/order.html he lists his address as Dr. Richard J. Hoyer, PO Box 17637, Rochester, New York 14617. The American Coastline University page at http://www.amercoastuniv.edu/ccl.gif shows its "certificate of accreditation" from Christhomas Consortium London.

    "The International University"

    In a google cache of http://www.internationaluniversity.edu/main.html The International University (TIU) asserts "The International University is now listed as one of the Top 20 Colleges and Universities, in: 'A College Degree In Your Spare Time Through Distance Learning' By: Dr. Richard J. Hoyer." In addition, the TIU page at http://www.tiu.org/ links to "TIU's College of Homeland Security" at http://www.internationaluniversity.edu/homelandsecurity.htm

    "The International College of Homeland Security"

    On the page http://www.homeland-security-college.org/ContactUs.asp is listed "Dr. Richard J. Hoyer, ICHS Executive Director."

    "University of NorthWest"

    At http://northwestuniversity.netfirms.com/accre.htm "University of NorthWest" lists its accreditations. One is Christhomas Consortium London. Another is Accreditation Governing Commission (http://www.agc-usa.org/). On the AGC-USA page http://www.agc-usa.org/accreditation.html one finds "Dr. Richard Hoyer, Chief Accrediting Commissioner."

    "American University Of London"

    At http://www.americanuniversity.org.uk/contact.html one finds links to both Richard Hoyer's International College of Homeland Security and the Christhomas Consortium London.

    "Kingdom College of Natural Health"

    The page http://www.kcnh.org/catalogue/missionss.html lists Christhomas Consortium London. At http://www.kcnh.org/catalogue/faculty.html one can read that "Dr. Hoyer is a talented man who has studied and become proficient in many fields. He has a background in Criminal Justice and Public Administration, psychology, environmental health and safety, education, business administration, and medicine." He is associated with the "School of Environmental Health and Safety."

    There is a fair amount relating to Richard J. Hoyer to be found in the DegreeInfo boards. One interesting post came from "Len" (Professor Dr. Leonard van der Walt: Saint Regis University Head of the MBA Studies Distance Learning Program) in the "Accredited vs State-Approved vs Unaccredited" > "A St. Regis Valupack: Buy in Bulk" thread, posted August 23, 2003.

    As you may recall, NBOE offers accreditation for sale. See the thread "Liberian accreditation for sale, $50,000 + $20,000/year" which includes the text of the offer of sale sent to a pair of senior adminitrators in two different unaccredited schools. Quoting from the offer: "The fee to NBOE covers ALL costs involved and comes with a guaranty of acceptance. The fee is $50,000 US. (Annual renewal: $20,000 per year)" Note that payment of the fee guarantees award of accreditation.

    One might conclude that Christhomas Consortium London is not very selective about what it accredits. It is likely that Richard Hoyer is well known in accreditation circles, and detection of his presence in an organization will raise an alert concerning the practices of the organization.

  13. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Interesting, You seem to basically conclude that Richard Hoyer is bad for the degree business and the schools you listed are also bad.

    Have you ever contacted them to understand the nature and approach of their business? I guess my question is what is bad about them?
  14. galanga

    galanga New Member

    read these...

    Have you ever contacted them to understand the nature and approach of their business? I guess my question is what is bad about them?

    For the answer to your last question, read through the material on the sites. In addition, take a look at information on the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization site: http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/oregon_north_dakota/index_or.html

    A question for you: what led you to inquire about DegreeInfo posters' views concerning Christhomas? Does Christhomas offer information about any of your products?
  15. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    what products you are talking about? I was hoping you could educate about them. You seem to be wrapped up in assumptions. I have read and ran into these people on the internet, I am just asking whats known about them?

    I do not have a business or offer products, I am a well educated engineer traditionally and now doing a Masters with a Royal Charter school so I do not know why you have this assumption about my questions.

    The question I am asking is did you get first hand info that these people maybe bad?
  16. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    Yes, $500 for a masters, $1250 for a doctorate, 10% off if paid today, and what year and disciplene did I want listed. (note these are medain prices range was +/- $275).

  17. Jeff Hampton

    Jeff Hampton New Member

    And you clearly have concluded that St. Regis is good, as evidenced in this post:

    So I will echo your question: What is good about them?
  18. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    What I said about St. Regis, is that the justification they give for a first degree is a good start. I have not dealt with them about that so can't say how far they go. Wether they really ensure someone is qualified is another issue.

    In respect to Masters and PhDs, I do believe thats another issue, its quite obvious that you need to do some work. I am doing a Masters and I learnt a lot, not about the subject but how to present and approach things in an academic way. So the knowledge was not the issue its the techniques and approaches that I learnt a lot. In doing that I also learnt new things in my area like tools to analyze designs etc.

    If people want to grant a degree without any academic work, they should use different labels. They could state that its an award for professional accomplishment and not an academic degree.

    Let me ask a more direct questions to see where people are coming from. If a school ask for detailed proof of your abilities and accomplishments would you recognize them? I do acknowledge that is the biggest thing lacking with most of these experience based programs. The resume seem to be just a way to make it seem legal but no proof is taken. In other words your janitor could get the same degree you have.

    Saying that, I still believe there are ways that can allow a person to prove their abilities and get a degree. I like both WGU and TESC but they are still pricey too.

    In respect to whats good about them, they would be good, if they genuinely prove that someone is qualified and acknowledge that with a high standard.
  19. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Using a St. Regis degree in Oregon would make you an instant criminal.


    That alone would make it a bad choice.
  20. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I do not want to focus any discussion on St. Regis I because do not endorse them or any other school.

    My general position is that we should not discredit schools that use a particular concept because others have misused it. In other words, let each school prove their own worth.

    In respect to Oregon, their position has more to do with Accreditation than legality in general. That position can be questioned in another forum. While it keeps out diploma mills, it may give other schools with genuine interest a bad name.

    Are you saying that if a school grant degrees based on the collection of proof from previous work, education etc and then develop a transcript solely based on that knowledge they are doing a bad thing? I asking this to see where the issues really are.

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