Warsaw Management University

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Pappas, Oct 26, 2019.

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  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    It's true that educational systems don't always translate nicely. My sense is that that it's better than it used to be. The Bologna Agreement was a step in that direction. Across all commonly discussed cultures we see lots of terms used that vary in their definition. The whole idea of a Masters degree varies widely . . . it can be anywhere from 30 to 48 credits . . . one year, two years, research oriented or course-based, license eligible or not . . . LOTS of variation yet they're all "Masters degrees." The Devil is in the details, yes? I would think that a school with advertising aimed at students from outside it's own country would be more careful in its choice of terminology. Some schools do actively change their degree terminology in order to blend with more systems. I'm thinking about the South African system which changed their D Litt et Phil designation to the more commonly used PhD
     
  2. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    Does any foreign doctoral degree candidate (worthy of anything other than laughs) believe that two semesters of study (10 months in total, which is the stated duration of the DBA program) equals to a four-year accredited European doctoral degree and even expects to get full doctoral degree equivalence in their home country? Has any English-speaking student ever seen a real business doctoral degree that lasts 10 months from start to finish? How could it be anything other than a certificate of completion? The school seems very open and honest about the fact that it grants a certificate of completion of postgraduate studies and a non-academic title at the end. Some people just assume that if they see the English word "doctor", it must be a doctorate. Well, it doesn't say "doktorat" in Polish for a reason. There's no mention of any academic titles on their page. You don't have to be fluent in Polish to catch that. You just need to translate a single word in Google Translate, or just open the page in the qualifications section, which is written in plain English. If I had that kind of mentality, I would never venture out of a familiar educational system. In English, you can also find honorary doctorates that aren't actual academic degree titles. Give me a break.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  3. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah well I'm happy enough to believe that no one is doing anything wrong here but it does seem a little murky. That piece you said above might highlight the point. "Some people just assume that if they see the English word "doctor," it must be a doctorate." Well I'm pretty much one of those people, especially if the page is in English because that's what it means in English. Either that or something wicked close to that like maybe a Medical Doctor. You've done a pretty good job of describing the reality of the situation re degree/certificate nomenclature and I certainly agree that people should do their homework and figure out what this "certificate of completion" means within both systems. But on the face of it, it's murky.
     
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  4. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    In agreement.
     
  5. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    You are grabbing on to straws. Can you give us a little more credit? It is a small fix that the institution can do for its English programming. Unless, you think the conversation we are having is a worthy one. I will suggest to you, it may be a distraction for the institution, if its original intention was not to mislead.
     
  6. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    In conversation mode, I was asked whether the school has a right to grant a PhD by publication. Absolutely not! The degree would have no standing in Poland. For this reason, it would also be rejected by credible evaluating agencies. However, if they managed to get some specific arrangements with accredited institutions with PhD programs (UAzteca-UCN style), it might be a possibility. However, I would be extra-careful about it, as it does not fall under Polish accreditation standards. I would personally never apply for such a program, especially if it could not be located within the database of specifically authorized degrees in Poland. They can only grant up to a Master's degree-level on their own.
     
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  7. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    I am prepared to be critical of dishonest behaviour. However, I am not going to criticize the institution for hosting a postgraduate program with DBA in the title, as this type of a program (MBA or DBA) is also hosted by more prestigious institutions in Poland (this is a new school). None of these Polish institutions is doing anything to harm English speakers. None of them attempts to grant academic degrees under those professional titles. I will extend charity when possible. I simply believe that foreign students need to become more aware of other schools systems, especially with plans of obtaining qualifications in such places.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
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  8. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    To summarize: You can put MBA or DBA behind your name after you obtain a certificate of completion of postgraduate studies in Poland. You cannot treat that as a degree title. It is strictly a professional training qualification. Only select non-public institutions are allowed to grant the doctoral degree title alongside pubic universities. They are then referred to as academic university-type institutions with names such as; Akademia or Uniwersytet. Collegium Humanum isn't among them. It is a vocational degree-granting and professional training higher school. It is not a university. Therefore, it cannot grant academic degrees such as a PhD. It can grant a Doctor of Business Administration, since it is not seen as a degree in the first place. It can also grant specific vocational Master's degrees.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  9. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    And, starting next week, victims will be blamed for all rapes that occur in Poland. Isn't that the same as what is being discussed here?

    Tadj purports that in Poland, MBA and DBA are not degree titles. But everywhere else, functionally, the are degree titles. Tadj then suggests that if someone gets screwed by thinking they're getting a degree, it's their fault. As I said, that's like blaming the victim instead of the rapist.

    My suggestion is simple: Blame the fraud on the school that is committing it, not on the students who were victimized by it. But I would agree with Tadj on one item: stay away from external programs in Poland. Far, far away.
     
  10. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    This is beyond absurd. There are places in the world where a three-year degree is accepted as a full Bachelor's degree. There are other places where a four-year degree is the standard and anything below that is not seen as a full Bachelor's degree, but something evidently less than that. Let's say that a person who obtained the 3-year degree title gets told that it does not meet the criteria of a Bachelor's degree in the new country in which he's trying to become a citizen. Actually, this happened to a lot of Polish people in Canada in the past, although I would expect that it has changed. I wouldn't personally like if that happened to me, but I would not see this as evil victimization. I would see this as countries setting different standards and paying the price for a lack of uniform standards in degree-granting. How is saying that an MBA does not exactly equal to a Polish Master's degree victimizing, especially when you state that openly on your (English) website and reveal such information upon request? Yeah, if you're signing up for programs in a foreign system without learning about them first and how they might benefit you in the long-run, you are a victim...of your own stupidity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  11. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    It may amaze you to find this out, but on the point you just made, we are in full agreement. And that's one of the biggest problems, whether in the U.S., Canada, Poland, or anywhere else: people are just intrinsically stupid. Except for us, of course. :D
     
  12. tadj

    tadj Active Member

  13. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Here is how I see it, In Poland you call it "świadectwo studiów podyplomowych" and the Polish students or most of them know what they are enrolling in to, but if you market the school and looking to enroll foreign students than you have an obligation to go the extra small step (if you are honest and ethical) to make sure that the applicant understands what they get. Especially if this is not the standard in other countries.
    Simply add a few additional words that the DBA program certificate is not a complete DBA degree but a post-graduate certificate with recognized credit, it's one simple line next to DBA, MBA, on the web site, etc.
    I think once one considers the school seriously they will research the credential more in dept, not like here when I spent 10 min on the web site.
    All I'm saying that both parties have to do their job.
    People in the USA do get credentials such as Teaching Certification (single subject or multiple subjects, special ed etc) that is not a degree but a graduate-level program that after completion of 10 or so classes and a period of student teaching class observations they are certified as teachers and that Teaching Credential allows them to work in public schools. If one chooses to continue beyond the teaching credential one can complete 3 or 4 additional classes and earn a Masters degree in Education.
    But its clear from the beginning that the teaching Credential is not a master's degree in Education, it's definitely on track towards such a degree in a number of US states.
    As to the UK, they do have other forms of accreditation that are on their qualification framework. I personally hold such qualifications as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Steve said:
    I actually made seven trips to Leicester. The only required one was the thesis defense, but I was there every year, if only for a few days each.

    I believe one can do a credible doctoral degree non-residentially. Doctoral study is a lonely business anyway, and modern technology makes supervision and interaction with others much better. (I'm in far more meetings via Skype, Zoom, etc. than I am in person these days.) But....

    Steve and I have both always held that a doctorate with residential periods--even short ones--is a better experience.

    I enjoyed Union more than I did Leicester for that reason. Even the "taught" portion of the Leicester degree was individual; you weren't in "class" (virtual or otherwise) with other doctoral students. But I always left Union seminars and peer days not just a little more learned, but also a lot more energized.

    So, I think you can do a credible doctorate non-residentially, but I don't recommend it over the short-residency approach. But YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm not letting this slide. This is nonsense.

    Universitas did a recent report comparing national higher education systems. The US ranked #1. The UK was #3, with South Africa at #34.

    Looking at the top 50, I added up the number of Caribbean countries. Hang on a sec, I'm tallying up the number now. Oh, there it is: zero.

    Now, that's just one source and one method of looking at it, sure. But to dismiss the best higher education system in the world with a statement like yours is a bit much to swallow. But if you have data that prove your point, I'm willing to listen. Not anecdotes; data.
     
  16. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Mmmm. As one "entitled brat" to another, I agree.
     
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  17. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    With or without data, I stand by my comment. The American education system is a joke when compared to the Caribbean.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Then it must be other-worldly, because the US system is the best on this planet. Opinion noted and answered with fact. All good.
     
  19. tadj

    tadj Active Member

    https://universitas21.com/what-we-do/u21-rankings/u21-ranking-national-higher-education-systems-2019/comparison-table

    I think that the ranking is fair. I would also situate Poland closer to Italy when it comes to its higher education system. Poland has been ranked #31. (It can attempt to compete against China's system of university education, although the relative size of the system might make that difficult). Chris might be correct when it comes to lower education though. I also think that education at a lower level is more rigorous in other spots. However, the U.S. reigns supreme when it comes to higher ed. No question about that. On other hand, it would be difficult to compete with the U.S. considering the resources and advantages embedded in the system. Even the universality of the English language helps, as it is the language of publishing. That said, the feature does not seem to help South Africa.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  20. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    I know that you don't let the facts get in the way when you're forming your opinions but I thought I'd post this for the benefit of others who might have a more rational approach to the subject.

    "Describing the ranking process, Pro-Vice-Chancellor Williams made the comparison that for the 2019 World University Rankings, there were 1,258 universities on the list, (UWI placed at 591), while for the 2020 World University Rankings 1,397 universities made the list (UWI came in at 571)."

    http://www.loopjamaica.com/content/uwi-climbs-world-university-rankings-after-last-years-debut

    We know that ranking systems are flawed but they do mean something. The people in the article seem to be excited to be ranked in the top 30%. Of course, other Caribbean schools fall somewhere well below that.
     

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