Warsaw Management University

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Pappas, Oct 26, 2019.

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  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    I'll even throw in a plug for Northern Caribbean University which recently received "institutional accreditation" from Jamaica. They seem to have some nice DL offerings

    https://www.ncu.edu.jm/
     
  2. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    The evidence is clear that the USA has the best post secondary education. I think what Chris is saying is that the evidence is also showing that students from the Caribbean performed at a much higher level in North America than they could in the Caribbean. Thus it is very common to have children go back or remain in the Caribbean to complete their high school then move north for post-secondary so they could outperformed.
     
  3. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    You might be right but then apparently you're just an entitled brat so why should we listen to anything you say?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Active Member

    Right! My point had to do with rigor. I think education in the Caribbean is design for you to "fail" because of how hard it is. Clearly the U.S. is a more developed country than the comprising countries of the Caribbean. So, naturally, it has the capability of delivering the best education. However, I think the rigor has been watered down to where just about everyone and their friend can get a degree. That's just my two cents on the matter.

    Btw, don't forget that much of the Caribbean is located in North America.

    You're funny! :D I think we've all been entitled brats at one point or another.
     
  5. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Fascinating. I'm not an expert on Polish education (that would be my uncle, who teaches in the country as a full Professor and department chair at a real university), but also have opinions. And I disagree with pretty much all the reasoning Levicoff - up until but NOT including the conclusion. This school is recognized in Poland, and yet their MBA/DBA programs are bullshit, to a sufficient degree to avoid them.

    There's no such a thing as "Polish DBA"; what they purport to offer is a Western invention (well, comparatively Western; Poland is a western country itself in the grand scheme of things). Status of the diploma is not up to the school, but content of the program is. When they call it DBA, they explicitly hint that the program is comparable to a real thing - and it is not. It's a two-semester executive training. As Steve said, bullshit. Good nose, Steve, I might have missed it on a first blush.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  6. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Ooooh, they even have a "Summit" in London as part of their DBA "programme". Gee golly, this is about as much sleaze as a school can dish out without being an outright mill. I won't necessarily hold it against graduates, but this exhibits less ethics than pretty much any for-profit here in the States.
     
  7. tadj

    tadj Member

    I prefer the way that Stanislav has carefully phrased his criticism of the school. I am not here to defend it, or represent it. Keep that in mind. I am just a guy who knows a few things about the Polish higher education system. Is the school prestigious in Poland? Hell, no. It's a tiny applied management college, which doesn't even appear in current top Polish higher school rankings. To their defense, the school might claim that it is too early for that, as it is fairly new on the scene. Are they misleading their international students? This is where I would disagree with Stanislav and the rest of the forum. Even the best quality institutions in Poland carry out the MBA and DBA programs as "studia podyplomowe" (never as degrees!). All that I've said is that the students who get duped by the MBA/DBA title bear the sole responsibility for that. All international students should carefully check the qualifications that they will get at the end of each study program and how they might be translated. In this case, the school informs all students about the concrete awarded titles on it's website. I've also provided an irrefutable example of Spain, because it's easy to get duped by non-official "Master" degrees in that country, or Italy for that matter. But even in such radical cases (something is called a Master's degree and yet it is not seen as an official Master's degree in those countries), you still bear the sole responsibility as a student at such institutions. We need to start treating people like adults. Forget about this particular school and simply consider what I've said on it's own merit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  8. tadj

    tadj Member

    Ultimately, it won't be the school that will showcase the DBA title on a personal cv/resume. The students will be doing that! Speaking of ethics, I would be much more concerned about the strong potential for unethical behavior among the school's international graduates. Polish students and employers know that the MBA/DBA titles do not constitute actual degrees. Will the international employers know that? Wlll the students act ethically and write "certificate of completion of postgraduate studies" next to their titles? Hmm...but you guys seem to have a lot of ready excuses for international students. I am sure they would all be the victims here. I mean, it could not possibly be the case that some of the students might be seeking a shortcut to a Doctorate degree in Poland, right?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  9. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I'm reminded of one particular case from Judge Judy where the defendant had posted an eBay ad for 2 cell phones, sold them for almost $500, but instead of sending the cellphones to the buyer, the seller sent two printout pictures of cell phones.

    The defendants excuse? The eBay ad explained that buyers would be receiving everything pictured in the ad, and the pictures in the ad were actually pictures of pictures.

    The defendant claimed that it was the plaintiff's fault for not reading the ad correctly. Judge Judy, outraged by the audacity, outright humiliated her on TV and awarded the case in favor of the plaintiff.
     
  10. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Buyer and seller responsibility are not mutually exclusive. It is the student's responsibility to do the necessary research to understand what they are getting for their time and money. However, it is the school's responsibility to accurately present what they are offering, and that includes taking into consideration what their target market's perception will be when they are given terms to describe what they are being offered.

    The difference is that the student's responsibility is practical and the school's responsibility is ethical.
     
  11. tadj

    tadj Member

  12. tadj

    tadj Member

    On the humanum website, you can see terms like "first cycle studies" (Bachelor's), "second cycle studies" (Master's). Curiously, the MBA and DBA are classified as postgraduate studies and appear in a different category. Gee, I wonder why....these Poles are so inhospitable. They didn't even translate those terms on any official gov websites; http://www.migrant.info.pl/Tertiary_education_in_Poland.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  13. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    The very first line says "Doctor of Business Administration (DBA)", and the actual program is nothing of the sorts. This should be enough, but they throw in "diploma with the accreditation of diploma with the accreditation of Apsley Business School in London" - forgetting to mention that diploma with the accreditation of Apsley Business School in London's "accreditation" is meaningless in UK (it is not an awarding body). They top it off with an "optional Apostille", totally worthless from the educational standpoint. Actually, these are practices straight out of the millists' playbook.

    It is not just the status of diploma; it is educational experience itself. DBA without research component is not a DBA. The way they describe the "modules" it's not even clear the taught component is anywhere near par. This school preys on Polish students (who might not know this distinction) as much as or more than on the foreigners.
     
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  14. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    Why are you trying to make this about the Polish people? This is a little issue about a somewhat obscure institution. A little bit more visible disclosure that the doctor of business is a certificate and not a degree could be helpful. Many prospective students use degreeinfo as part of their due diligence. So, it is all about flushing relevant information for ourselves and others.
     
  15. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I disagree. This thing is substantially not a "doctor of business administration" program. Sure, disclose that it's a certificate, but also - don't call it DBA when it's not.
     
  16. tadj

    tadj Member

    I am not making this about the Polish people. I am just astonished that some people could complain about some conspiracy to hide the knowledge about these postgraduate credentials when info on them is readily available on the school's own website (in the form of clearly drawn distinctions between the program categories and awards) and countless other sites devoted to explaining Polish credentials.

    Stanislav,

    You're making my point. The very fact that it is not a typical "Doctor of Business Administration" program (as you would see in parts of the world where this constitutes a bona fide degree) is an actual reason to stop and think...hey maybe this isn't a degree! No doctoral thesis, 10 months of study instead of three years...a certificate granted at the end...gee. That's why I've suggested that some foreigners might be coming to Poland for the sole purpose of getting what is seen as a degree in other countries in a super-accelerated format. But I don't see why Poland should be blamed for organizing such studies, especially since they end with a certificate here. How hard is it to understand?

    It would indeed be deceptive if they called it a degree, or associated an ACADEMIC title with it in their advertising. None of these things has been shown. Period.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  17. tadj

    tadj Member

    I also had a ceremony at the end of my certificate of completion in an unrelated field. If that constitutes an unethical crime, I really don't know what to say.
     
  18. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    ...is the reason it should not be offered as "Doctor of Business Administration". This is really not that complicated.
    There were a few blatant degree mills that would claim that they are a "church", and therefore their degrees are "ecclesiastic and not academic in nature" and therefore are "protected under the First Amendment". Same thing. The fact that WMU is a bona fide educational institution only means they really should know better.

    Here is an example:
    https://mim.kiev.ua/en/programs/dba

    This program ALSO doesn't have the same status as governmentally accredited (what used to be "state format") degrees - because Ukraine STILL doesn't have an accreditation standard for "Business Administration". See how they try to run it as a research program? have research methods modules? show faculty profiles? This school tries to run this as a DBA program (incidentally, they are accredited AMBA members, a status that seem to cover DBA program as well). I still don't think this program would be the best option for an average North American, but at least this is not actively deceptive.
     
  19. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Here is another example along these lines:
    Postgraduate Studies

    This is Interregional Academy of Personnel Management, a for-profit behemoth in Ukraine. As you can see, they have "Doctoral" and "Doctoral PhD" program. The difference is "Doctoral" programs are "official" programs where candidates are ultimately vetted by the Ministry of Education, and "Doctoral PhD" is in fields not approved, so university awards degrees on its own. And this is sleazy, even though they do make this distinction, and even though they do require a dissertation and defense in either case.

    As it happens, IAPM (or "MAUP") is internationally infamous as a hotbed of anti-Semitism. One David Duke (yes, "KKK Grand Wizard and National Director") holds MAUP PhD in History, and markets the living daylights out of this achievement. It's a bit unclear, but I'm willing to bet it's of "MAUP own" variety. It is remotely possible that they had a right to supervise real History doctorates in the past (they don't currently), but I'd bet they didn't. Ironically, Volodymyr Groysman, who is the first Jewish Prime Minister of Ukraine, is a MAUP graduate (undergraduate Law).
     
  20. tadj

    tadj Member

    There was some discussion about the status of MBAs and DBAs in Poland. From what I can remember, the Polish Academy of Sciences tried to run the DBA as a degree once. Since that time, it has been commonly agreed that they can be only be run as one-year or two-year programs by institutions of higher education. However, it was likewise agreed that they would be treated as non-degree specialist programs. Since that time, a number of non-public higher schools have introduced them. They're all abiding by these rules. I can understand why people might be puzzled by this resolution and feel as if they should be classified as degrees. I am just trying to show a different perspective, which has been taken by a particular country. That's all. And I would agree that Humanum (due to unrelated issues) would not be the best destination for ambitious students. I just don't understand the outrage at the "unethical behavior". Plenty of Ukrainian students study for these precise MBA and DBA postgraduate qualifications in Poland. They are a real boost to the higher education system here and I don't understand why these qualifications should be looked down upon.
     

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