Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Pappas, Oct 26, 2019.
Any thoughts on https://humanum.pl/en/studiuj-po-angielsku-ii-stopien/
Looks legit. Appears to have proper Polish approvals from Ministry of Science and Higher Education, H+ on Anabin, meaning its degrees are rated acceptable for Germany. . The English on the site looks flawless.
Apsley Business School in UK, which is not degree-granting itself, has their degree-seeking students taught by this Polish school. They earn degrees from Warsaw Management U.
Didn't have much time - no idea as to cost.
Seems legitimate to me but I don't see where they offer distance learning programs.
Oh, my beloved people, when willst thou develop a sense of discernment?
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, et cetera?
Here we have a school that claims to have been established in 1995 and claims to have over 6,000 students. Yet they have relatively few references at all on Google – the only ones I see are from WMU itself or from mickey-mouse so-called school evaluation sites.
Moreover, if you look at a list of universities in Poland on, say, Wikipedia (you’ll find it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Poland), you will not find WMU there. I know Wiki isn’t perfect, but are they so negligent to omit an actual university that allegedly has 6,000 students? Moreover, a school that actually had 6,000 students would be likely to have a full Wiki of its own – and obviously, they do not have one.
Even on Youtube the only relevant video on them, cited below, is simply a bunch of still photos set to music. Even their presumed commencement ceremony is full of people in wacky looking robes that I would hardly call academic regalia. Do I believe that this video accurately represents WMU? Hardly.
In short, I call bullshit on this school. And anyone dumb enough to enroll there simply because they want a degree from Poland (to which I can only ask, “Um, why, because they like pierogi?”) deserves when they get.
Here's the Wikipedia, Steve: https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegium_Humanum-Szkoła_Główna_Menedżerska
It's in Polish though
Have a little humility, guys. If you don't know much about the Polish higher education system, it would be better to simply admit it. Posing as a world educational quality expert make you look rather silly. There are some obvious flaws in Steve's "research", although I can can still respect his opinions on U.S. institutions where he has some grounds for his opinions. Nevertheless, I still find Steve's opinions on U.S. national accreditation rather annoying.
The "university" is not on the list of universities in Poland, because it is not...um...a university. In Poland, it is considered to be an accredited non-state higher education institution, which can grant European ECTS-credit approved degrees in the more practical and applied subjects.
Secondly, the name Warsaw Management University can indeed suggest that it is comparable to university-type institutions....to someone who doesn't know about how the Polish higher ed system works. I can assure you that it is not a university under Polish law. The term "uniwersytet", "akademia" and "politechnika" cannot be used by any non-doctoral degree-granting institutions. In fact, it is absolutely illegal to use such terms in the case of higher schools. That's why the school isn't called university in Polish. It is called "Collegium Humanum - Wyższa Szkoła (higher school in direct translation of the name) Menadżerska." The school markets itself as a university, but it only does so in English. There's nothing illegal about that, as the aforementioned law does not forbid such loose usage in another language, although one could question whether this is fair. It might simply be a way to attract foreign applicants, who might be confused by the term 'higher school'. Again, it is not wrong to employ such language in another language. It is non-issue, as it is not breaking any Polish law.
Oh...and don't be fooled by their "Doctor of Business Administration" title. It is not a degree in Poland. The "MBA" isn't a degree either. It is a "Certificate of Completion of Postgraduate Studies" (Studia Podyplomowe), a valuable credential for people who already have a Bachelor's or Master's degree upon application to the post-grad program.
I am simply trying to communicate that the school ought to be compared to an applied college with degree-granting powers instead of a university. That would be a fair comparison.
Secondly, the video that you've shown is referring to another "higher school type institution (also located in Warsaw, which is simply called: Wyższa Szkoła Menadżerska without the extra name Collegium) from which this newer entity has split. It is not showing the new school. Again, you're just showing a complete lack of familiarity here. Nothing wrong with that except that you make it sound like you're some type of expert who is calling bullshit on schools. Are you also calling bullshit on all non-university degree-granting community colleges in the United States, Steve?
Wikipedia as a final source of information on accredited Polish higher education institutions and universities? I'll take a pass. I'd suggest looking at the non-state institutions that are all listed here:
https://www.gov.pl/web/nauka/wykaz-uczelni-niepublicznych The school is on the list as well.
For non-state schools that are university-type (treated on par with public universities in Poland), you can refer to this website: http://go-poland.pl/higher-education-institutions, although it is not exhaustive. Both of the referred websites give you the complete picture on accredited higher education institutions and universities in Poland. There's also the "Polska Komisja Akredytacyjna", which checks the actual quality of degree programs at all degree-granting institutions in Poland; https://www.pka.edu.pl/
What's wrong with pierogi?
I've never developed a taste for sauerkraut. Otherwise they are tasty little dumplings.
I'm aware that European educational systems vary from place to place. I think they're a little more alike then before that whole Bologna Agreement thing happened. The reason we don't talk about European DL programs is that, in general, the language of instruction is something non-English and because Americans are notoriously mono-lingual (myself included) that just sweeps them all off the table. There are exceptions of course but then the prices are not that great and the actual degrees available tend to be available in the US as well. Soooo the net result is we don't pay a lot of attention. I'd be willing to bet we're missing some diamonds in the rough. I'd be happy to hear that there are some Polish DL programs , even if they're in Polish.
for Programs in Polish language – 200 PLN
for Programs in Russian language -100 USD
for Programs in English language – 200 EURO
So the Russians are paying in USD and the Americans are paying in EURO
I never claimed to be a world educational quality expert. In fact, I would deny being one. On this, I’m just a guy with an opinion. Who knows bullshit when he see it. As for humility, I am always cognizant that with my three degrees plus fifty cents (USD) I can afford the same quarter-cup of Starbucks as a high school dropout.
Okay, let’s see . . . It’s not a university but calls itself a university, and grants master’s and doctoral titles but they’re not degrees? As I said previously, bullshit.
I never said that anything was. In fact, I like pierogi, though I try to avoid them because of high carbs.
But I’m a xenophobe at heart, and the only credible education systems I personally buy into are U.S. and perhaps British (with some limitations).
While I have never told a Polish joke (at least not yet), I can only think of four great things that have come out of Poland: we’ve already covered one of them, pierogi. The others are Frederic Chopin, Lech Walesa, and Karol Wojtyla: a great composer, a great activist and better president than the one currently in Washington, and a cool pope.
Oh, and I have zero interest in management studies or degrees, including in the U.S. But I can still call bullshit when I see it.
And yes, I know I’m a snob (especially, as you noted, when it comes to national accreditation). And delighted to admit it.
I am disappointed ☹️
Okay, Phdtobe, I’m sorry . . . I forgot to include Canada.
But seriously, I really don’t do the xenophobia thing as a lifestyle, only in a limited sense with regard to education. And I’m not really against foreign education systems except when it comes to Americans who don’t consider the consequences of graduating from a foreign institution.
For example, I cannot see any positive effect from a U.S. student earning a degree from, say, South Africa or even England, unless they have actually been there. It’s like always wearing a t-shirt that SHOUTS that you have an online degree. If someone tells me that they graduated from UNISA, for example, the first thing I’m going to do is inquire about their visit to the campus.
Note that nothing I say here applies to undergraduate degrees. I have never had a problem with online, totally non-residential bachelor’s degrees in any subject. But for the past 30 years, I have consistently said that totally external, non-residential graduate degrees in the helping professions are downright harmful. One cannot become a leader in a helping field (which includes psychology, counseling, education, clinical fields, and any of the pastoral professions) without learning how to be accountable. And people who earn doctorates will purport to be leaders in their fields, whether or not they have been adequately prepared.
I have since extended my subject list to include business-related fields, including accounting and finance. Why? Because when the advent of the DBA, a lot more people will be running around calling themselves Doctor. They will purport to be leaders in their professions, they will purport to speak with authority, they will purport to teach those professions to others. But if they have doctorates that were earned totally online, they will be bullshitters. Always. Period.
Does that mean that the programs in which they studied are intrinsically bad? Nope, not necessarily. But if the students do not have the accountability that comes with leadership, they will ultimately be idiots. And can do a lot of harm to others.
One of the reasons that Rich Douglas has a credible second doctorate is that he actually went, physically, to the University of Leicester to defend his thesis. He actually met with his advisors and professors and, as I have discussed elsewhere, he got to associate names with faces and so did they. That goes a long way in personal development. Necessary at the bachelor’s level? Nope. But at the doctoral level? You betcha.
So, let’s return to topic. There are several reasons I question the legitimacy of the Warsaw Management University, mostly due to many items missing from their web presentation that I consider essential for institutional disclosure. But assuming they might be legitimate, the question for an American student, or for a student who is based in any European country other than Poland, is whether that student will ever actually, physically go to WMU. If the student is pursuing a graduate degree and does not intend to even visit the school, IMO the resulting degree is worthless.
Ditto the schools in South Africa, some of which are among the best in the world. But if a U.S. student is going to pursue a doctorate from UNISA, UNIZUL, Pretoria, Capetown, or any other otherwise good university and never actually goes there physically, their degree will never be credible in my opinion. Why? Because that is my opinion, and I don’t purport that it should be anything more than that.
As for general xenophobia, believe me, I joke about that on a regular basis. The city in which I live is 63% Hispanic, and I cannot get through even a portion of a day without hearing (and sometimes having to speak) Spanish. Moreover, it’s primarily Puerto Rican Spanish, and as any linguist will tell you, if you have been trained in traditional Castillian Spanish, you may run into problems if you have to cross over into Cuban, Mexican, or P.R. Spanish. It’s like people who study classical French and then go to Montreal, where the language can best be described as Franglais.
End of story.
The funny thing is, I think the American educational system is more of a joke when compared to other countries, specifically the Caribbean. I know many Americans who currently hold degrees would never earn them if they went to schools in the Caribbean. The education there is way more rigorous. Here in the U.S., these entitled brats all get a degree by doing minimal work. I know people from my Island who struggled in school and all of a sudden they come to the U.S. and are on honor roll.
I had the experience of living in Canada and Poland, so I kind of look at these things from the perspective of a dual citizen. I would certainly agree with you about the potentially problematic consequences of graduating from institutions outside of one's own country. However, I would add some nuances to your comments. Some people would like to get an education without an overly burdensome financial commitment, or years of crazy student loan repayment. That's their primary goal. I don't think that this practice of foreign alternative-seeking ought to be discouraged, especially by the more financially well-off, who can easily fork out the money for costly institutions at home. I really don't see why tuition levels shouldn't be seen as a highly relevant consideration when looking at one's future educational options. That's where foreign institutions can definitely be an option for consideration, especially when you can study online without relocating and paying the high costs of local living. You're on target when you point out some of the pitfalls of such a setup. I can distinctly remember hearing the various anecdotal stories of Canadians who got their degrees outside of Canada and how little they meant on home turf, even degrees from the southern neighbor states. This is the real danger of education beyond borders. However, I can also see many positive stories of people who got their physiotherapy degree at some small higher school in Poland and are now working as highly paid physiotherapists in the US. with positive credential evaluations. Secondly, you can find plenty of English-language degree programs in Poland, although visits to the country are mandatory with DL degrees (You must write your end of term exams and appear in person at certain times during the degree program, so they are never "fully online", at least not in Poland).
I would have to disagree about the fully online graduate and postgraduate degrees. I think that academic institutions will likely know whether you've graduated from an online/distance program, as you can frequently verify this information with a single click search. The rigour of online education at places like NationsU has made me much more cautious about the extolling the superior quality of brick and mortar institutions, or traditional institutions which have not jumped headlong into online education. Is it a risk to get your PhD in South Africa when you're living in the U.S.? Yes, but you're taking risks throughout your life. This is just another case where you might get lucky with your non-local degree, or end up no better off than someone without the online degree. Solid research is the key to good decision-making in the area of education. Even forums like this can be beneficial. Props.
There was this one guy from Vietnam who got his DBA in Poland without realizing that it not a degree. He later found out that it was unacceptable back in his home country as a substitute for a doctorate, as it was postgraduate certificate. One thing is for sure: if you're getting a credential abroad without doing the most basic research as to what it means locally, you are a not cut for higher education. Plain and simple.
I concur with this fully. The U.S. has been "dumbing down" its educational requirements for several decades now. It's hard to believe that at one time, students were required to be fluent in two other languages to earn a Ph.D. And that at the undergraduate level, they were required to study the classics and a foreign language. And that even in public schools at one time, they were required to study Latin and, in some cases, Greek.
Unfortunately, the dumbing down has begun to hit every other country, especially those that are trying to tap into the American market by starting DBA programs. Ultimately, over the past few decades I've watched the entire higher education system become a joke. And, since it's consumer driven, there is no hope of changing it as long as illiterate idiots do the "fastest, cheapest, easiest" rap at all degree levels.
One of the coolest books I ever read was 1988's The Tongue Tied American: Confronting the Foreign Language Crisis, by Paul Simon (the late U.S. senator from Illinois, not the musician), who lamented that while people in other countries were bilingual if not multi-lingual, Americans were pathetically unilingual and illiterate when it came to other languages. I often found this to be the case when I had to call shipping departments in other countries such as France and Belgium - even at the level of warehouse workers, they were almost universally fluent in English.
But I digress . . . time for some sleep.
The private college offers education on campus and by DL.
I don't get it how DBA is not a degree? Then it's not DBA and the same for the MBA. Maybe the college needs to state it's a DBA level certificate. When I read on their web site its confusing because they do offer bachelor's and Masters's degrees as well. I agree with Steve that this is misleading. If in the rest of the world DBA means degree than why only blame the guy? The school markets its self as University in English, Russian and other languages except for Polish. Maybe as mentioned its not illegal but how ethical this marketing practice? I don't know much about the Polish higher education system but in Russia, there is a term of Wishaya Shkola - Higher School as well such as Higher School of Economics that is a part of a National Research University in Russia.
I think it is the college's responsibility to make this clear.
I know people who get a certificate of retraining, used to be very popular in Russa, it's for persons who already hold a degree and want a credential in a different discipline. Such retraining of specialists is in a way extension to one's (Specialist) degree. But on its own, it's not a degree. Its a type of graduate-level certificate.
Ok, so let's see how your logic applies: I am going to Spain to get a "Master" in something, but I don't bother to find out if it's an official state Master's degree in Spain (hence, it won't be treated as such upon evaluation in my home country). But it was called a Master's degree and it even said so on a translated English website. Apparently, the school has misled me. Really? The Polish applicants know that they are getting "świadectwo studiów podyplomowych" (a post-diploma certificate of completion) upon graduation from an MBA or DBA program. You're the one who does not know that as a foreign student. Is the school responsible for your lack of knowledge? Look, if you're not prepared to do research on the education system in another country and see how it compares to your own, you should probably stick to a college within walking distance.
So I was going for a "degree", but I didn't know that it was certificate of completion at the time of graduation, even though it specifically states that on the website: http://dba.humanum.pl/en/diplomas-and-qualifications/ Nice one!
Apology accepted !
The beauty of DI is that it flushes our these duplicitous marketing schemes. The school seems legitimate in Poland, but its English marketing, based on this discussion is meant to deliberately obfuscate and trick non-polish speaking students. Not cool!
I am not aware of any campaigns to trick English-speaking students. "Studia podyplomowe" are a very popular form of study. For example, you can get entire school teaching qualifications through such certificates of completion of postgraduate studies. Maybe it's the other way around. You assume that the American way of treating professional training (calling it a degree) is the right one. Welcome to the real world! Terms such as "Master", "Doctor" or "Professor" have different meanings, largely depending on the geographical context. In Poland, the MBA simply isn't equivalent to a Master of Science in Business Studies. However, I am sure that it is all a conspiracy! The Spanish are also intending to mislead the whole English-speaking world by allowing for two types of Master's degrees, official state and university's own. Right.
Separate names with a comma.