SMC University accreditation Status for PhD Programs

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by erhijakpor, Apr 20, 2010.

Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    You have no clue do you.....UofL has American Accreditation as Does SMC

    Uof L-AALE
    SMC-ACBSP

    So what are you talking about?
     
  2. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    As much as I hate to say it Steve you seem to be one of the few people who ever seem to provide information that makes me see the other side of things.

    Your provide articulate information that answers my questions……..even if they are things I don’t want to hear..lol

    Thanks for always putting up with my rants.
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Well, thanks, I appreciate that. At least in this case, I'm aware that SMC is a very odd duck, and that its overlapping accreditation statuses mean it's not right for some people, and it's only fair for those people should know it ahead of time.

    Even though we mostly disagree, at least you have the stones to speak up even when you know you're in a community that largely doesn't seem to share your views. (I had to balk at the "there are no peaceful Muslims" thing, though. I'll grant you that the Middle East may be pretty cuffed up, but I have several Muslims friends here in the U.S. and some abroad as well who just want a decent job and a nice place to raise their kids.)

    -=Steve=-
     
  4. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    One problem with this thread is that, like so many recent Degreeinfo threads before it, it begins with conceptual confusion and overstated hyperbole, then devolves from there.

    The thing appears to be located in Switzerland and serves students from many countries. It doesn't have American institutional accreditation, true enough. Several of its programs do have recognized (and quite real) American programmatic accreditation. The kind of accreditation that SMC does have may be perfectly fine for some students but not suitable for others. It is a topic that potential students really do need to consider, hopefully in a sober and informed manner.

    So at least two issues have been raised so far which probably should be kept distinct --

    1. Foreign accreditation equivalence. That's a whole can of worms, a complicated subject.

    2. With regard to American accreditation, the relationship between programmatic and institutional accreditation.

    It's also important to keep in mind that these issues will look different to students in different countries and to American students in different situations.

    These things have already been addressed pretty well by Caldog and others in this thread. I want to concentrate on something else:

    That's another issue --

    3. What's the value and status of CHEA-recognized accreditation?

    Then 'b4cz28' sets out on a highly opinionated attempt to trash and dismiss the Council for Higher Education Accreditation. In his second post he elaborates:

    So the problem isn't the fact that SMC has American programmatic accreditation without having American institutional accreditation. Even the programmatic accreditation isn't accreditation. Why not?

    That's false (and statist). All of the American accreditors are private associations. The federal Secretary of Education (individually, on his own personal authority) is charged in the US Code with recognizing those accreditations that qualify schools and their students for federal financial aid. The Secretary has staff to advising him on this, though on occasion Secretaries have been known to overrule their staff and make decisions unilaterally. (That happened when TRACS was initially recognized.) The Secretary of Education's recognitions are widely used in many other situations as well, in order to distinguish between real and phony accreditors.

    In addition to the Secretary of Education, the private Council for Higher Education Accreditation (kind of a professional forum for the American accreditors) also recognizes which accreditors it believes are credible. New accreditors are free to choose between the Secretary of Education and CHEA and to apply to either or both of them as they see fit. Both are widely recognized and carry a tremendous amount of clout here in the United States.

    So another issue has arisen --

    4. Are government bureaucrats the only ones who can recognize accreditors, or can accreditors' credibility and competence be acknowledged by private professional or scholarly bodies as well?

    Personally, I think that it's healthy that sole power to make accreditation recognition decisions isn't placed into the hands of a simgle Washington political appointee. I value CHEA's existence as an alternative source of accreditor validity. It helps to keep the process more honest.

    I don't believe that it would be intelligent to dismiss CHEA. Government itself, at all levels, seems to treat it with great respect. Degreeinfo would be wise to do the same.

    For thousands of occurances of 'council for higher education accreditation' on .gov websites, see here.

    I think that I agree with 'b4cz28' that there are issues with SMC that prospective students need to be aware of and carefully consider. Will its unusual form of accreditation become an issue wherever they are located? Will it be recognized by employers, by licensing bodies, and so on? But I don't think that it's very helpful to pursue that important discussion with ignorance, over-statement and combative hyperbole.
     
  5. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    SMC is not recognized officially in UK by NARIC.

    Only RA or MoE of the home country is recognized by NARIC UK and other NARIC EU.
    This can be problematic or less utility.

    UoL has full recognition (equivalent to institutional accreditation RA)
    SMC does not. A problem.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2010
  6. BobbyJim

    BobbyJim New Member

    OK b4 I’ll type real slooow while you get your fist out of my face. Please tone down your rhetoric in the future, and I’ll do the same.

    I agree that some USA students may have a need for a RA or NA degree with or without program accreditation/recognition. However, not all USA students have that need, and certainly most foreign students do not have the need for said USA RA or NA degree with or without program accreditation. That is unless they want to go to graduate school in the USA.

    Engineers had similar concerns about portability of their credentials as they worked around the world, and actually did something about it. I am suggesting to you that 1) if TECLOSE or other agencies have issues with legitimate foreign credentials 1) why not try to change the opinions of the government agencies, or 2) develop a similar set of agreements for your profession, like engineers have done. On the other hand, we can just keep yammering away on this board.

    See these links for more information on engineering accords:
    ABET
    International Engineering Agreements
    Accreditation.org : Mutual Recognition Agreements
     
  7. BobbyJim

    BobbyJim New Member

    OK b4 I’ll type real slooow while you get your fist out of my face. Please tone down your rhetoric in the future, and I’ll do the same.

    I agree that some USA students may have a need for a RA or NA degree with or without program accreditation/recognition. However, not all USA students have that need, and certainly most foreign students do not have the need for said USA RA or NA degree with or without program accreditation. That is unless they want to go to graduate school in the USA.

    Engineers had similar concerns about portability of their credentials as they worked around the world, and actually did something about it. I am suggesting to you that 1) if TECLOSE or other agencies have issues with legitimate foreign credentials 1) why not try to change the opinions of the government agencies, or 2) develop a similar set of agreements for your profession, like engineers have done. On the other hand, we can just keep yammering away on this board.

    See these links for more information on engineering accords:
    ABET
    International Engineering Agreements
    Accreditation.org : Mutual Recognition Agreements
     
  8. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    What are you talking about?????

    You are insane; I do not feel the need for any foreign degree to hold any type of US accreditation. But the school we are talking does hot it. The other school you brought up U of L has it as well. What is your point?
     
  9. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Schools in the world that hold US accreditation did it mostly so the US students can get Student loans.

    UoL has full recognition of its home land country, what is Institutional accreditation or Royal Charter etc.

    SMC as far as I know has no such recognition so the US accreditation adds QA and recognition to the programs that are accredited.

    Still the school has no Institutional recognition and the degree holders can have problems with the utility of such degree.
     
  10. BobbyJim

    BobbyJim New Member

    I think a better question might be - what is your point?
     
  11. BobbyJim

    BobbyJim New Member

    In the beginning….. a obvious non-USA poster asked a question and you gave this opinion.

    Still no USA accreditation according to you.

    Then people shot that down.

    Then folks explained why it’s not really an issue to the school.

    So now they have some sort of approval that you will acknowledge, but don’t like.

    Then I suggest that you direct your efforts away from attacking windmills or pidding up a rope in a strong breeze, and you reply:

    Are you insane? Maybe you should change your handle to Don Quixote.

    PooYee, this going in circles is madding and I quit.
     
  12. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Just to offer further documentation of the points that I made previously about ABET, a CHEA-recognized agency:

    1. ABET is currently recognized by CHEA, but not by USDoE, as shown here. ACBSP has the same status.

    2. Under ABET's current policies, US programs are eligible for accreditation if they are offered by institutions with either (Section II.A.1.a) institutional accreditation from a USDoE-recognized agency, or (Section II.A.1.b) "appropriate approval by a State authority." The latter section indicates that programs may be accredited by ABET even if they lack USDoE-recognized institutional accreditation. This is admittedly uncommon in practice, but it can and does occur.

    So ABET accreditation is not recognized by USDoE. And furthermore, ABET accreditation is not necessarily associated with USDoE-recognized institutional accreditation.

    So does this mean that ABET accreditation has zero value, as far as the Federal government is concerned? No -- in fact, the exact opposite is true. The US Government explicitly uses ABET accreditation as a degree evaluation standard when hiring engineers. And as stated previously, every US state and territorial government uses ABET accreditation as a standard for evaluating candidates for engineering licensure.

    So USDoE recognition, or the lack thereof, is not the whole story. The US Government itself relies on CHEA-recognized professional accreditors, at least in some cases. This may or may not be the case for ACBSP specifically, but it's clearly incorrect to suggest that the lack of USDoE recognition makes other forms of US accreditation automatically worthless.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2010
  13. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    Booby Jim you're a nut job.

    You started posting against an argument that I never made.
     
  14. BobbyJim

    BobbyJim New Member

    You haven’t made a logical argument yet, but you should review the illogical circular statements you have made on this thread and others before you call anyone a nut job.
     
  15. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    Who are you?

    You are crazy as heck, you're on a rant about something I agree with about. I never argued with about forgin schools needing US accreditation!
     
  16. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    No one is saying that ACBSP has no value, The program is accredited and recognized, but in comparison to ABET is NOT the same status. ABET is a partner for number of international reciprocal agreements.

    SMC not having institutional accreditation creates a problem.
    Many agencies such as NARIC UK and NARIC in other countries have a policy to first look for Royal charter or RA type of recognition, Institutional accreditation. SMC not having such accreditation has a problem.
     
  17. GeneralSnus

    GeneralSnus Member

    If what you said is accurate, wouldn't it also be true to say that any graduate of a Swiss university would have problems with NARIC UK?
     
  18. caddy

    caddy New Member

    I spoke with SMC and their Doctor of Finance recieved a negative response from WES. The reason was their lack of Swiss acreditation. I like the program, but wonder what limitations this would put on a graduate.
     
  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    The key is recognition by Swiss Federal Council. These will have no issues with NARIC.

    As in most parts of Europe the higher education landscape in Switzerland
    is dominated by public (state) institutions. There are no nationally
    recognised private universities. However, the first private
    university of applied sciences was recognised by the Federal Council
    in 2005.

    The following universities deemed as RA or UK RC / Pr Council equivalent.
    Recognized Swiss universities and Institutes:

    Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich
    Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Lausanne
    University of Basel
    University of Bern
    University of Fribourg
    University of Geneva
    University of Lausanne
    University of Lucerne
    University of Neuchate
    University of St Gallen
    University of Lugano
    University of Zurich
    University of Applied Sciences of Bern
    University of Applied Sciences of Central Switzerland
    University of Applied Sciences of Eastern Switzerland
    University of Applied Sciences of Northwestern Switzerland
    University of Applied Sciences of Southern Switzerland
    University of Applied Sciences Western Switzerland
    University of Applied Sciences of Zurich

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2010
  20. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    BTW
    The only reason I point the issue is to inform potential student that they may have an issue in some cases.

    The degree has recognized accreditation and I'm sure many employers and
    other institutions will accept it.

    NARIC simply states that in USA there are many different forms of accreditations and that they deem only RA universities as equivalent to UK degrees.

    So DETC or other recognized accredited degrees have a problem to get officially evaluated. The same is in other European countries.

    The final decision is students, if s/he think this type of limitation is an issue for them.

    Also things change with time. SMC may get Swiss Federal Council recognition and then they will be fully accredited with international recognition everywhere.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page