Rushmore University

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by AuditGuy, Aug 24, 2012.

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  1. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    UK non-degree qualifications can be very valuable - no argument. They can sometimes have the same utility as a degree, no doubt. They will get you faster access to degrees - for sure.

    If you EVER see "Rushmore University" as an Awarding Body, Listed Body or (gasp! Shudder!) Recognised Body - you'll know the entire British Higher Ed. system has permanently crashed. I hope that day never comes!

    Johann
     
  2. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I have to agree with you on this one.
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

    Whoa. NACES doesn't say anything. NACES is a trade association of foreign credential evaluators, nothing more. It's important to remember that its members do not uniformly evaluate foreign credentials exactly the same -- as a famous example an MBA from Heriott-Watt was evaluated as the equivalent to a U.S. Master's degree by one NACES member but as the equivalent to a U.S. Associate's degree by a different NACES member. And then there's AACRAO, which is not a NACES member, but whose evaluations are widely respected.
     
  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    As usual, Steve you're right. I should have said "If a NACES-member evaluator says" but reason had evaporated -- I was hot on the trail. And OK - If you bring in ACCRAO, that's fine. No argument.

    And yes - different evaluators can (and do) issue different opinions of the same credential. That's their NACES-or-ACCRAO-given right, I guess. I have no problem understanding that point, but it's not what my bit here was about.

    My point was - a proper evaluator (any one of them) may deem your foreign (non-degree) credential equivalent to a certain US credential - often a degree. But you still don't have (any) degree. You have a credential that is equivalent to a degree - i.e. has much the same utility in most cases. Reason: credential evaluator gives you an evaluation (not a degree) and (in this case) the underlying credential wasn't a degree to begin with.

    I stand by this. I made the distinction because some believe if you have a credential that's deemed degree-level it automatically IS a degree --- and it isn't. Sometimes the distinction really doesn't matter. In this case, I think it does.

    It all had to do with this:

    A good (though non-degree granting) school was said to be "endorsing" Rushmore degrees. It was suggested that maybe qualifications earned in co-operation with that school could possibly be transmuted into "degrees." I said neither endorsement nor any transmutation -- even into a Rushmore "degree" was a good idea. I still say that.

    Again, I apologize for my "If NACES says" phrase. It was wrong. I don't think much else was, though....

    As our Mod. says, RUSHMORE=MILL
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2012
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

    Yup, I agree.
     
  6. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    Thanks all

    Thanks everyone for the responses, much appreciated.
     
  7. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Equivalent

    ADJECTIVE:
    Equal, as in value, force, or meaning.
    Having similar or identical effects.
    Being essentially equal, all things considered: a wish that was equivalent to a command.
    Mathematics
    Capable of being put into a one-to-one relationship. Used of two sets.
    Having virtually identical or corresponding parts.
    Of or relating to corresponding elements under an equivalence relation.
    Chemistry Having the same ability to combine.
    Logic Having equivalence: equivalent propositions.
    NOUN:

    I say the academic portion of the Qualification is Equivalent to a degree but there could be others qualities to Qualification that Degree doesn't have.

    For example my Qualification of State-certified Engineer from Germany caries with it Academic value per WES (NACES) as Bachelor of Engineering from RA University in USA.

    It also testifies that the holder has minimum 2 years of experience and had 3.5 years of qualifying Apprenticeship followed by education and graduation from technical college.

    Now for the Employers in EU who are familiar with this qualification it means more then Bachelors degree.


    Now not to confuse anybody Rushmore is not awarding as far as I know CMI qualifications.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2012
  8. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Please, Lerner - we know what equivalent means - and nobody is disputing or minimizing the value of any British - or other - qualification... including, of course, your own excellent German credential. :smile: We're on the same side, here.

    I'm glad Rushmore isn't awarding CMI qualifications. It had better not. It's own spurious "degrees" can get the holder into enough trouble, already. CMI should be very careful -- and trying to extricate itself from this Rushmore situation wouldn't be a bad idea, as I see it. Even the best schools can make mistakes and I think CMI may have made one, here.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2012
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Oops! Before the grammar-police (or the crazy-police) take me away -- that should be Its not It's. Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa!

    Johann
     
  10. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    Get a degree from here and you'll rush more... to the unemployment line.
     
  11. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Rushmore

    This is an old thread but interesting debate.

    Just to clarify a few points here.

    1. CMI does accredit MBA degrees programs - They have Royal charter that allows such option.

    2. Diploma can be equivalent to degree especially based on how much credit was gained and at what level of difficulty relative to the degree. What you call it may not be relevant as long as the people granting has the right to do so..

    3. Rushmore - I don't have any direct experience with Rushmore, so cant say good or bad about them.. Do they have the right to issue degrees? I am not lawyer, so cant really make a declaration. There is really no universal standard in the US to make a degree illegal except to say it was granted in a location where the school did not have legal authority to do so.

    Each state can make a case that some level of Accreditation is required for the degree to be acceptable. Looking at the Rushmore faculty, it seems they are way more qualified than most of us..

    4. Rushmore Degrees - I would think they have legal authority to issue degree as they seem to have some intelligent people on the faculty who would cover those bases. To say its sub-standard is a different level of conversation. based on my basic reading on what they do, it seem the degree is more of a coaching program where you develop certain skills to help on the job. To me, its one of those degrees which you would not use to go after a job but more to show you completed some learning activities.

    5. CMI and Rushmore - Again, I think CMI is way more credible than most of the commenters on this thread so if they want to make arrangements with Rushmore, that in itself should not hurt their reputation. Maybe the arrangement is to accept the Rushmore MBA as a route for the Chartered Manager qualification ( my speculation).

    What is obvious here is a strong bias against non-traditional schools. Not sure what is the motivation for that..
     
  12. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Firstly, you can't make judgments on anyone's qualifications here since you don't actually know them. Second, Rushmore's faculty and their individual credentials are unrelated to whether the school is worthwhile for a student from a utility standpoint. What matters in these situations is accreditation and Rushmore does not have it.

    Let's go deeper:

    Rushmore is not a "non-traditional" school. Let's not pretend that they are providing something unique or different. Put simply, Rushmore is just another unaccredited outfit offering degrees of zero-to-low utility, charging far more than a number of accredited schools charge; that alone is a problem. And while an affiliation with CMI is obviously good for them, it's not so good image-wise for CMI to be affiliated with Rushmore. Someone or a number of people at CMI have had a massive lapse in judgment.

    Since CMI offers their own certifications, it would be wiser for one to seek the MBA someplace other than Rushmore and attempt certification with CMI on their own.

    I would defy anyone with a Rushmore MBA to find acceptance into a legitimate nationally or regionally accredited Doctoral program, and I can assure you that none of those program heads are going to care that CMI is connected with that MBA somehow. Rather, they'll begin to question CMI after learning from you that they've affiliated with Rushmore, and you will be rejected with a silver bullet.
     
  13. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    To me your logic is flawed about this.. Let me see if I can break this down based on your statements.

    1. Recognized Accreditation is important - We all agree.

    2. People would normally take a course to learn, right?

    3. If someone decides to pay whatever amount to an unaccredited school and learn something useful, its their choice, right?

    4. People pay thousands to attend week-end workshops and seminar which are not accredited, so if you pay Rushmore $10,000.00 and it gives you confidence in your work I think that would be value.

    5. I would bet that the CMI team is more qualified than you to make a decision about any provider, so I am not sure why its such a bad thing if associate with Rushmore.

    If someone graduate from Rushmore and feels more competent then saying its zero utility is rubbish. To me unaccredited does not equal fraud but somehow your statements seem to imply that if someone was to earn a degree from Rushmore it would amount to fraud.

    Of course I agree that in this world, it make sense to apply to an accredited school but I don't see any problem if you feel like a school such as Rushmore can meet your needs. Firing someone with such a degree is not a fair act..

    Did the student learn new skills after taking a Rushmore degree? Is Rushmore legally authorized to issue degrees? If the answer is yes for both then what is the problem? Most times you can apply to a PhD program in Europe without a first degree so even if you can't use the Rushmore degree for admission, you could still gain acceptance.

    The way some people come across here is that Rushmore is so evil and there is nothing they can do good to change whatever image was given to them. Now we are questioning CMI's judgement. This way too wrong and unethical..
     
  14. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    That is all strawman, and it's typical millish strawman that we've all read countless times over the years. You're simply writing information that is universally agreeable but has no bearing on whether or not Rushmore is a viable program by itself, which is the main issue at hand.

    At the beginning you said my logic was flawed, then you present that...

    So by that logic, because people pay an exorbitant amount for one thing then paying Rushmore is automatically no different, never minding that Rushmore is a known program of little respect while the other example is an unknown.

    That's not flawed logic? Okay...

    Again, you know nothing of anyone's background here.

    The way you continue to pit an organization of many levels with many people against single people on this board is just simply laughable. I don't know what you think that's accomplishing, but it's just weakening your argument.

    Then you clearly have no idea what utility means in this context which again indicates that you don't have the proper understanding to make the arguments you're trying to make.

    I never said nor do I believe that unaccredited equals fraud, nor have I said that Rushmore is a fraud. I'll state again that Rushmore is an unaccredited outfit offering programs with costs that are higher than many actually accredited programs. As such, Rushmore's utility is zero to low.

    Let's breakdown two major issues:

    1. The above being said, I'd be remiss not to mention the number of times it's been reported that Rushmore has allowed people into their MBA program without a prior degree, in fact on their own site they state that you don't need a prior degree. To make matters worse, they don't require any of the other standard tests, and no formal evaluation of transcripts to verify your prior education.

    So now comes into question what their evaluation criteria is even based on. I do see that once you click "Apply Online" link you immediately see Visa and Mastercard logos...

    2. There are two instances where accusations were made that people without even a high school diploma were allowed in.

    Are either of those things illegal? No. Are they unethical? Well, perhaps it may be somewhat intellectually/academically dishonest. Masters programs are called graduate programs for a reason, after all.

    So you have no argument at all then...

    Strawman. It's not about "liking". It's not about personal enrichment. Those two things are important but have zero to do with the legitimacy and utility of Rushmore's programs. Besides, a person can learn for personal enrichment for much cheaper than Rushmore is charging, that's for sure.

    You say that firing someone for having a degree from an outfit like Rushmore is not fair, so is it fair that someone who went to a legitimately accredited school, paid their dues, and earned their MBA by moving up through the educational ranks properly (high school diploma to associate degree to bachelors degree) gets snubbed for a job because someone who never graduated high school or only graduated high school swooped in with a Rushmore MBA that they got in less than a year? That sounds fair to you?

    The problem is that you can't stop presenting strawman concepts.

    And I highly doubt that any legitimately accredited and respected school in Europe is going to let you into their MBA program without some kind of serious competency test, tests that according to Rushmore are not required for their school.

    Your defenses are unethical.

    Rushmore spent some years in the past claiming accreditation from places that were dubious at best. So forgive us for being skeptical of them, smh.

    Their current connection with CMI means CMI accredits their Masters program, great. But institutions make lapses in judgement every day. Anything with a human element opens the door for lapses in judgement. In the same way that you're saying we're acting as if Rushmore is the devil, you're acting as if CMI is God and can do no wrong.

    If Rushmore wants respect in the academic world, they can stop trying to backdoor their way into that respect and start by having a more stringent application criteria. They can also apply for full accreditation and keep working hard until they achieve it. Or, they can stop offering zero to low utility degrees and focus on certification until they reach a level needed to become fully accredited.
     
  15. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    I am not here to win any argument as facts can speak for themselves. I am not defending Rushmore University directly but sticking to the point that the arguments you present are obviously biased.

    Just to clarify a few things.

    1. I know that MIT Sloan has admitted persons without a High School diplomas in very recent times - Are those people typical? no. However, those persons are high achievers.

    2. It is a fact that most schools in Europe would accept non-degree holders to masters programs on a case by case basis. Spend some time on some of the websites and check that out especially for UK schools.

    3. Rushmore University does disclose what they offer, so if you don't like you can leave it alone.

    4. If you hire someone just because they have a degree from some well known school, you have no experience in real life. People hire primarily for skill sets

    My basic point here is that if the person accepted that the school is not fully accredited and can learn new skills then its their choice. As long as they are honest on how they got the degree and how it help, no problem to hire them.

    In terms of utility, I would think that skills acquired would be the main aim of gaining a degree. In an equal situation the accredited degree could be preferred. How do we define equal? it depends on the person applying for the degree.

    I think CMI working with Rushmore mutes most of what you are trying to say here. Have you ever interacted with a Rushmore Graduate to say they are less intelligent or less skilled than a standard MBA grad?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2015
  16. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Can you kindly present some at some point?

    Your actual words say otherwise entirely.

    My bias against schools offering students zero to low utility at high costs will remain as it should for any person wanting to make certain the public has honest information to reference.

    Strawman. This has nothing to do with Rushmore's criteria unless you're in some way saying that Rushmore only admits high achievers, but let's be real, we all know that's not the case.

    You're not making any point here. Again:

    I highly doubt that any legitimately accredited and respected school in Europe is going to let you into their MBA program without some kind of serious competency test, tests that according to Rushmore are not required for their school.

    Show me one of those schools that will admit a student without a competency test of some kind.

    Same can be said for most things. Doesn't make them anymore legitimate because you can walk away from them when you want...

    Ha!

    Okay, so, first, show me where I said that? Second, I think you'll just as soon find life on Mars before you find a competent hiring manager who, knowing about accreditation and what it means and knowing that Rushmore is not accredited or well-respected, would hire a Rushmore grad over a grad of ANY legitimately accredited school, even less so when skill sets are equivalent.

    The fact that someone would choose Rushmore over a legitimately accredited and respected school given the fact that there are many of them and some charging less than Rushmore, right there shows that potential candidate's lack of judgement and resourcefulness.

    That all sounds nice and dandy, but many companies who know how these things work will not take that view. You're kidding yourself.

    So gain the skills at a respected, accredited institution. It's that simple. Going with Rushmore is just asking to make things more difficult when there is no reason to.

    *SIGH*

    Morleyl, I've been here a long time. I've researched countless programs for even longer than that. Your tactics of debate are all things that have been done to death by many before you. There is nothing you can say or do that hasn't been seen here time and time again.

    You know what the conclusion is as it always is? A little-respected, unaccredited school offers zero to low utility for its students. This is not my opinion, this is not my feeling, this a fact based on real-world outcomes that have been discussed here since day one. This is why every argument you make is without merit when discussing utility.

    You want those things to be different, fine. But understand that what you want is never going to happen, and I for one do not want prospective students to read information online misleading them into a huge mistake when it can be easily averted.

    So here: if a person wants to earn a degree just for personal enrichment and pay over $10grand for it, then Rushmore is an option. If a person wants a degree that actually has accreditation, utility, respect, and won't have to be hidden, and won't have to have the holder always worried about being questioned, exposed, and ousted, then there are hundreds of other options outside of Rushmore.
     
  17. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    Well, it seems the contributors here have nothing else to do but research schools without speaking to students and the actual professors. There are thousands of high achievers out there without any degree at all that have been hired over big name graduates because they are competent. That is basically my main focus here.

    I am not surprised about your answers anyway.. Its like talking to a robot. Questioning CMI as an established organization tells me how much of a robot you are..
     
  18. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Instead of coming here to fiercely defend an unaccredited outfit of lacking respect (because that's what it is and that's precisely what you've been doing), and insulting everyone with dim-witted barbs, couldn't you instead spend that time showing some real data to support Rushmore which might actually give you a valid case?

    Or do you just prefer to make strawman arguments full of anecdotal fluff wasting everyone's time as you've been doing since digging up this nearly 3 year old thread? If so, it's never going to help your cause, it will only continue to make it worse. But, at least it's somewhat entertaining in that watch-the-2-year-old-try-to-put-his-shoes-on kind of way...
     
  19. morleyl

    morleyl New Member

    What evidence do you need? Read the university website.. Your approach to argument is very disrespectful. Normally, I am not confrontational but what grabs my attention is to say that CMI lacks good judgement. To me that is enough to conclude the bias here.. In fact, I am in the process of getting my Chartered Manager title from them, so to me its unfair to come across this way with little first hand information.

    You have not proven that you have met a Rushmore graduate and they were totally incompetent, so what is your point about them? I honestly missed it..
     
  20. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    morleyl,

    LearningAddict has not been disrespectful at all. YOU have. But I'm not going to be as nice as he has about it. I find you detestable because what you're doing here is so glaringly irresponsible and you either don't care or don't understand, but that changes nothing about how disgusting it is.

    Whether you realize it or not, you are shill. As a matter of fact, you are a blatant shill, because your own words prove your extreme bias.

    For example, you said: "In fact, I am in the process of getting my Chartered Manager title from them..."

    So YOU'RE biased, not LearningAddict, YOU. You are doing what others have done while attending an organization of questionable record, you defend them to the death with blinders on.

    To be clear, he never specifically said that CMI had poor judgement overall, he said they may have had a lapse in judgement. He's not off-base here in the least bit considering Rushmore's colorful history. Are you not aware of that history, or are you just PLAYING dumb?

    morleyl, do you have an honest bone in your body? I question it, because you come across as a very dishonest person. How can you sit here and pretend that Rushmore doesn't have a ton of issues with its reputation? How can you pretend that this school has cache in the academic world? Unless you've been living under a rock, you know darn well that Rushmore has about as much respect as the guy selling handbags at the park.

    The fact that you keep trying to bring up personal arguments makes me question your intelligence and your educational foundations, because these are tactics of underdeveloped minds. Sure, these arguments you provide were acceptable in junior high school as a basis to grow from, but as an adult you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Everything with you is "Well, you weren't there!" and "You haven't talked to the people!" and blah blah blah, all meaningless crap. What part of unaccredited and not respected is unclear to you?

    If you're smart at all, you'll get that certification through CMI only and leave Rushmore alone, but something tells me you're too far gone to realize what you're even doing.

    Spend your money, do what you want with your life. But if you think you can come on to a board where the majority of the people are highly educated and whose major hobby is the examination of educational institutions, and then spout this absolute juvenile nonsense expecting it to just be accepted, then you've got another thing coming. You've chosen the wrong place. The people here know B.S. when they see it.
     

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