Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Bill Huffman, Apr 12, 2021.
Um, like, nothing? Clinton conceeded, remember?
How is it that you believe that YOU know what the truth IS? (Amazing how that works.) I don't think that you or anyone like you is in any position to know what the facts are.
What makes you so certain that his contention that apart from widespread election fraud he would have won is a lie? (Your "landslide" sounds like hyperbole. It needn't be a landslide.)
I'm one of Degreeinfo's tiny handful of Republicans (at least in terms of voter registration, though I have nothing in common with people like Mitt Romney), and I don't "believe Trump's lie". (I don't believe that it is a lie, for one thing.)
I do believe that voting irregularities almost certainly occurred. There is abundant evidence of that.
What I don't know is whether those voting irregularities were orchestrated in any way, whether they favored one candidate or another, or whether they were on a scale to turn the election in any closely contested states. What I do believe is that a very real possibility exists. ('Possbility', not necessarily 'actuality', which still remains to be determined.)
The reasonable thing, when half the country (perhaps correctly) doubts the integrity of the process would be to create a bipartisan commission of inquiry, on the model of the Mueller investigation perhaps, except with equal numbers of Biden and Trump supporters and not just staffed by DC apparatchiks. Set it to work determining what really happened. It would have to have strong subpoena power, be able to make public criminal referrals for obstruction of justice if necessary (public so we will know whether Biden's DOJ simply ignores them), and be independent of the Biden administration and any other source of outside interference.
I'm not convinced that kind of political independence is even possible in our current political climate.
These kind of suspicions about the integrity of the election process must be addressed because they go straight to the heart of America's future as a democracy. (And that's a big deal not only for us, but for the entire world.) They can't simply be countered with ridicule and 'cancel culture', with attempts to shut up and silence anyone who expresses their legitimate concerns. (Firing them from their jobs, 'deplatforming' them etc.) That kind of suppression is just guaranteed to keep concerns about the future of American democracy alive and festering in a huge segment of the population.
Including me, I must say.
I almost forgot about Trump.
Long time since that name got mentioned.
He seems to quickly have been forgotten regarding the world scene.
Thought he would be lingeringly present for longer but I was wrong.
It's like the world has gotten used again to a world without Trump.
Miss his clownish acts. Don't miss his nasty acts though.
The truth is really not that hard to discern in this case. Here's some obvious points.
Some simple logic should be obvious. Let's take one of Trump's claims that was repeated multiple times before the election even happened. Trump said, "The only way I lose this election is if the Democrats steal the election." This should be obviously false. If you can't see that fact then it would seem that you're a hopeless case?
There were over 80 lawsuits filed by Thump and his supporters. All were thrown out by the courts.
Barr said that the FBI investigated all accusations of election irregularities that could have effected the outcome of the 2020 election and nothing was found.
Election security in the federal government is the responsibility of Homeland Security. The organization in Homeland Security responsible for election security is the Cyber Security & Infrastructure Security Agency. The CISA said that the 2020 election was the most secure election in USA history.
The states that had contested elections like Arizona, Georgia have done multiple recounts which turned up no major issues.
Finally the most important fact is that the burden of proof for ridiculous claims rests on the people making those absurd claims. That means that Trump has responsibility to prove his ridiculous assertions. It is not my job to disprove Trump's silly lie that he won the election in a landslide. It should be Trump's job to prove it true. He hasn't because he can't. The most logical conclusion as to why he can't prove it true is because it is a silly lie.
Can't agree with you there. A bald faced lie, yes, beyond a reasonable doubt, but not "silly". There is nothing silly about it. The lie was engineered and executed by Trump as a deliberate and dangerous attack on the foundation of our representative democracy for exact and sole reason that the voters didn't give him what he wants.
How about "silly" from the point of view that there is no real evidence being offered to support the lie. Only the repetition of repeating the same lie over and over again coupled with the lie's intended audience's tendency to want to believe that such a thing may be true?
But what are his plans for this lie? I fear we haven't heard anything yet.
Trump has apparently raised hundreds of millions of dollars off of this lie. That is probably almost as important to him as the primary purpose of the lie. At least that is my view and the view of his niece Mary Trump, who holds a PhD in clinical psychology. Trump's niece says that his fragile ego could not handle the idea that he is a loser in the election. Other advantages to him are probably much less important to him. His niece thinks he will never run for President again because he wouldn't want to take the risk of losing again. So, he is not really trying to position himself for a future run.
My guess is that he is pushing the lie mainly to try to rake in more cash and to feed his ego. I'm sure it also feeds his ego being able to continue warping the reality of millions of Americans. It gives him a sense of control and power.
I completely agree with you, Nosborne, that it damages the Republican party and our country to undermine democracy like this. A sad part of the story is that most elected Republicans don't care, only a few like Liz Cheny are standing up for the constitution and our country.
CNN (talking heads not printed article) claimed that the 2020 vote recounts going on are a main topic in "Trump land". I go to FoxNews.com and find no mention of it. Is there any insight or comment on this from our Republican friends on this? Was this statement true?
I will try to provide a balanced reply.
All I hear is that the Dem's in the state of AZ are creating many obstacles and obstructions by critisising the recount/investigation procedures.
On the other side Republicans have found state procedural issues that cast doubt-plus there is major Dem resistance - which some GOP say its illegal.
Especially the multiple delays ...go to court and get their arg thrown out. As a result no TRO. The count/inspection continues.
On Tuesday May 25th 2021 morning, the Arizona House Appropriations Committee stripped Secretary of State Katie Hobbs of her ability to defend election lawsuits.
It gave the power exclusively to the Attorney General.
One more article in the news today
That is great information, Lerner. I really do appreciate it.
Could you possibly shed any more light on the point of view from the perspective on the right? I mean, is this generally considered fertile ground to find the elusive voter fraud? Why would USA voter fraud originate in China, if that is even what is being alleged? Why would looking for bamboo in the paper somehow prove nefarious issues?? Do they even know where the paper came from for the official ballots? Perhaps the official ballots were partially printed on paper that had bamboo in it? Have they even investigated any of these kind of things? Is there any discussion on the credibility or lack thereof of the Cyber Ninja company or are they just considered credible because they believe in the voter fraud theory? Any discussion on the apparently false claims by Cyber Ninjas that they have worked in the past with a couple of large banks, Citibank and I forget the other one? Do they shed any light on kinematic artifact detection on the ballots and how that could possibly prove anything?
Like I mentioned I didn't see anything on Foxnews.com. I also looked at the last few days of Fox and Friends and they didn't seem to cover anything on the recount stuff. I suspect that OAN is covering it more since they are broadcasting and collecting donations? Is Fox covering it? Newsmax? Is this really a main topic in "Trump world news"? like was alleged on CNN? Is it covered on Fox or mostly just OAN and Newsmax?
I didn't see anything on main news outlets.
I think as you mentioned its more on Steve Bannon's War Room podcasts and OAN etc.
As to China as far as I understand the opinion is that Trump admin was hostile to China and Biden admin would be friendly to China.
China appears to be able to influence the US Left to go softer on all the tariffs and economic wars. Also some point to Biden Jr connections to China (be it real or not).
For number of reasons there are people on the right who put all their reputations and well being on the line in attempt to prove that there was wide spread elections fraud and that the Dem's got away with a steal.
They fear for the future of the US, as Socialist trickle down agenda is making comeback and the what they say the "Santa Claus" in DC with generous budget for all but 2 agencies who capt the same budget.
Iran "deal" that will lead to Iran having nukes in the near future and many many more issues that for them are crucial.
The Access of Iran , China, Russia etc is getting deadlier even more.
Very interesting, that would explain why I couldn't find anything on Fox News. Perhaps the comment on CNN I referred to has at least some merit?
There was a recent poll out on this issue as well as QAnon believers.
Polls find most Republicans say 2020 election was stolen and roughly one-quarter embrace QAnon conspiracies
From the land of the mentioned above sources the states like GA, PA and NV among others look hopeful while only AZ makes some waves.
It appears highly important to the future upcoming elections.
Just to clarify: they "fear for the future of the US" and thus they work to "attempt to prove that there was wide spread elections fraud"? Rather than, you know, have rational grounds to believe there was a "steal"?
If so, we have, functionally, an apocalyptic cult that believes they are against a foe and danger so great it justifies lying and abandoning democracy. Basically, Scientology's "fair game" doctrine aimed at plurality of US population ("liberals", defined as anyone left of Pucker Carson), wielded by a cult using an identity and resources of one of the 2 major parties. I start to wonder whether the GOP is closing on the KKK as the biggest terrorist threat to the United States - if even regular rank-and-file people (ones who really should have less narrow POV, at that) spout this kind of stuff.
I think that fear underlies most of the Trump-related wacko beliefs and behavior. American society is changing very quickly now and the Trump Base includes a great many people who are afraid that they will lose their traditionally privileged position as white people and that they may even be called to account for past injustices. The prospect IS scary. There's a reason the Trump GOP commentators deny that there's such a thing as white privilege even though ten seconds' honest reflection on one's own life experiences will show that it not only exists but has permeated every aspect of our society.
A society where whites AREN'T privileged is so foreign to us that we don't know what it might look like. That's frightening. Much easier to deny (falsely) that the problem exists or to deny that it is a problem that white people must solve. But in the end, white privilege will cease to be a dominant feature largely on the rather Marxist-Leninist ground that it will fall victim to its own internal contradictions. The history of this country has been one of gradually extending the rights originally accorded only to our white, male citizens to cover more and more non-white and "non-male" citizens as well. That is the true genius of our Founders though I doubt even they understood the long-term consequences of their high ideals.
At a very deep level, when Americans in general say they believe that "all men are created equal" we actually MEAN it and are made acutely uncomfortable by evidence that our society has not lived up to that ideal. Rather than face it, we (and I am including myself here) would rather deny the truth, at least for now. Our discomfort won't allow us to live forever in denial however. If I have learned anything in my lifetime as an American who remembers the Sixties, it's that fact.
Reading over my last post, I'm struck by the high regard I seem to have for my fellow Americans. We may be slow to honor our ideals but at least we HAVE ideals and those ideals eventually drive us to do the Right Thing. That speaks well for us as a people and gives me hope for our future.
Reporting indicates that Donald Trump has become obsessed by his election loss. His previous statement that he would be re-inaugurated as President in August I had assumed was just the pathological liar doing his lying thing. But the reporting is that he actually believes it to be true! The SCOTIS is not even in session then. The only way he could possibly be reinstated in that timeframe would be a coup. I would consider this belief that he'll be President again this summer to be delusional. QAnon delusional level of insane.
I must admit that I didn't fully appreciate Mary Trump's statement about Trump's inability to handle the thought of being a loser. The question in my mind is how far down this rabbit hole will the Republican base and party follow? If they follow only so far then it could mean the destruction of the Republican party. If they follow even further then it could lead to more violent insurrection and damage to the country.
Reading through this post again I was disappointed in how pessimistic it was, especially when following Nosborne's excellent posts above. I think the way to look at it is that the historic arc bends towards our shared ideals like equality that all men and women are created equal. This arc bends that way in the long run. We are just having to deal with some shorter duration pressures that are pushing back against the long term trend.
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