Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by roysavia, Jan 30, 2003.
Umm - does rather look like you were right, OpalMoon34. Good call!
OK Johann, it's a little bit unlike you to make such a vague, uninformative post. You think opal was correct? About what, exactly?
No, it's not like me to make vague uninformative posts - unless I want to - which is quite seldom -and not now.
I think OpalMoon34 (whom I remember from DD) is correct about who One-poster Revkelly is. And there is other info posted about this person OpalMoon named on the board. - That's all - and I'll admit I could still be wrong, but I don't think so.
I clearly said to OpalMoon34 in my prev. posting that time would tell if her speculation re: RevKelly's identity was correct. Time has now passed, with no answer. Ergo, I think she's correct.
Now please tell me - what exactly was vague, here? Not that it's really important.
I'm not a fan of this splinter from the first Universal Life Church (Modesto, CA) but any titles and degrees are not bogus maybe a bit expensive and all but as a church they can decide what internal requirements are for degrees and titles. There is the 1st Amendment Seperation of Church and State involved even if a member of my branch worships a Big Smiley Face and has his ministry around that its a ministry nevertheless. No different for any other faith group these degrees if of a religious nature are fine and well legal to use in most cases.
My advice though is if your just interested in a doctoral title join the ULC (Modesto, CA), get ordained for free it takes 48 hours or less to record and then buy the title Reverend Doctor for $10 plus shipping costs. You can then use Rev. Dr. in front of your name legally and for a minimal amount and no state could refute it as a religious title its no different than Cleric, Rabbi, Minister, Pastor, Imam and so forth. If you want a degree for a modest sum you can get one of those also but its not needed to use the title I mentioned.
I agree 100% that the degrees are legal and allowable under the law. My problem with "degrees" such as this is that they cheapen the doctoral credential. If anyone can slap "Dr" onto their name by paying $10 it decreases the value of a doctorate degree in the minds of the public. It also contributes to the idea that all non-accredited schools are mills, which is not the case.
For example, a friend of mine has been working diligently for over four years full time to earn her PhD from an accredited B&M institution. I think giving away the "Dr" title for a small fee and no work is rather insulting to those who put in the years of hard work to earn the title. Imagine a church passing out "Medal of Honor" medals to anyone who pays them $5. Rather disrespectful to the soldiers who actually earned them, no?
So I think the "Dr" title should be reserved for medical doctors and those who complete accredited doctoral programs which require actual work. (Honorary doctorates shouldn't be used in a person's title either, which is why most people do not use them in this way.) For a church that wishes to award a credential to their minister, pastor, cleric, etc, I would say a church should just award the Rev title, like most churches do. Awarding a pseudo-doctorate title for a small fee is ridiculous, IMHO.
Actually the ULC (Modesto) offers many titles two are Doctor sorts the Reverend Doctor and Litterarum Doctor for $10 each actually with shipping its $11.65. And what you think doesn't matter its the law that matters and for me its funny to prod the religious sorts with our odd titles from the classic Cleric to Goddess to Universal Rabbi to Magus and all manner of others. What would be a better opener to talk about ones faith I'm Reverend Smith or I'm Free Thinker Smith or Universal Philosopher of Absolute Truth Smith [UPoAT Smith]?
Contrary to popular beliefs most of us take the churches role seriously but some like me love prodding the sensibilities of the serious faiths with their titles, degrees and special knowledge of an elect. There is to much power there IMHO and if I can poke and prod it a bit I will. But that is my view.
It is bogus if the so called "church" has no objective existence other than an online store that sells ridiculous titles to gullible individuals who then use the supposedly religious title in non-religious contexts and situations. Like what this Non-doctor Theresa M. Kelly is doing. Actually, you don't even have to buy the doctor title from a notorious credential mill like ULC if all you want is to to put "Dr." before your name, you won't be arrested for doing that. What is actually illegal is to call yourself "doctor" for the purpose of deceiving someone as to your skills, qualifications, or credentials, where such deception would amount to fraud.
The ULC (Modesto) does have active ministers some are pagans using the ULC as the legal cover since its practical, some are running marriage services for an income, some run websites or have alternative beliefs. The only hard doctrine: Is do only that which is right. And according to the founder that is whatever the person in their conscience believes is right and doesn't hurt anyone else.
I'm not even religious per se but what most would call a rational humanist and am among a decent number of atheists, agnostics and philosophical sorts in the church.
And there is a physical church in Modesto they have a weekly open pulpit service on Sundays I did go there once two years ago and its been there for decades.
Is it any less meritorious than Scientology, Televangelists and others that make money on religion at least the ULC (Modesto) branch is honest about it you want a title, degree or book or other item just buy it. And since we are talking the First Amendment here an attack on my church is an attack on any other one if we can be taken down and the state can dictate degrees used in faith settings what about the Baptists, Roman Catholics, Lutheran, Jewish and other faiths.
Its true the buying of the two doctor titles is fairly uncommon most either earn on the the ULC degrees, gets the honorary title Doctor of Divinity or use another title. I fancy Cleric or Free Thinker both fit me the former is a person working in the clergy I am ordained after all and the later fits my path so to speak one of rational thought and criticism of the systems humans have. But if a woman wants the title Goddess or a man the title Magus its fine by me.
Anyway is it illegal to offer the title, since no one is endorsing illegal use of them. Even on my own clerical ID has as the last line:The Universal Life Church assumes no responsibility for any actions of the bearer hereof not the use of this credential for any purpose other than the purpose it was issued. Among those its mainly as the privileges and considerations customarily granted to ministers, perform marriage within the local and state laws, performing all services preaching and conducting services and ordain new ministers into the church. I cannot break the law and not follow the laws I just get powers within ministry which can be broad by are not absolute.
C’mon, you don’t have a church. You only bought a title from the most notorious religious credential mill in the world that would “ordain” even mass murderers, dogs, cats or even a completely made-up character in exchange for a quick buck.
Universal Life Church (Modesto, CA) is a scam and everyone knows that it is. Its so-called ordained ministers have no credibility whatsoever. Clerics of the “Jewish, Roman Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran” faiths that you mentioned studied for years and have legitimate bachelor’s, master’s and at times doctorate degrees (or several) which they worked hard for and did not just buy from a website who will sell it to anybody. That is what separates your bogus “doctorate” from a real doctorate religious or otherwise—you just bought a title, you lack all the necessary education and training. Chances are, and by all means correct me if I’m wrong, you don’t even have an accredited bachelor’s degree.
To give you an idea of the difference between legitimate and bogus, here is a sample curriculum of a legitimate Master of Divinity degree from Southwestern Baptist theological Seminary (regionally accredited by SACS). Now, here is the instant ordination page of your “church” ULC, where all you need to do is fill-up and click. How dare you compare your fake religious doctorate to legitimate religious degrees as if you do not know that yours is just a joke!
Marriage annulled on basis that ULC minister lacked qualifications under New York Statutes: no congregation and not appointed by head of ecclesiastical order.
[*]Marriage annulled on basis ULC minister lacked actual church or stated meeting place.
[*]New York City right to deny license to ULC ministers upheld.
As opposed to the Term Life Church.
Go to that page in the church link for odination, go to the bottom left. Lets see a church with services every Sunday in our HQ with from my experience an open pulpit for anyone to say his or her piece. Sounds like we do in fact have a CHURCH just one in the HQ in Modesto, CA but its a church. And all degrees are issued under religious exemptions in California so in fact are legal use religious degrees. If our church is just off the wall on things compared to the other ones that is okay this is America a faith can be odd. Its out view the simple act of desiring an ordination means we are welcome as ministers in the church regardless of our path. And we have a doctrine one short bit: And do only that which is right. Our founder was brilliant he let anyone of any age be a minister finally killing off the elitism your representing with your degrees and church titles and special knowledge.
Are you saying you need a formal education or training to be a minister of a faith under the US Constitution?
And our church may be a joke but if it is at least we like to have fun and in our own respective ministry goals add to it, I'm a rational humanist not even religious and just enjoy using my credentials to show how stupid the system is by taking one to abuse the rights to prod the others. I married two sisters once who were lovers, why, no one else would but I did the whole in the faith certificate and public ceremony. If someone wanted to ordain their dog I would do it and attach him or her to my ministry even ante up for a title just because it would tick people off.
In truth we have serious members all over many pagans did complete training in their paths but use the ULC for the legal aspects such as registering to perform marriages which can be done in the majority of states easily. And others join to again since they like their enjoyment of faith very simple. And then you have people like me.
And I just want to ask a question for OpalMoon34: Is there a law anywhere in the US Requiring one have a degree or formal training to be ordained as a member of a faith or recognized as a clergy member by the government?
I think many have lost the ability to laugh at themselves, not be too serious, and have some fun. I have a coworker that become ordained so he could perform the ceremony for his best friend. He did it on a dare!
But in doing so you were the only one who came out as stupid. You proudly claim that you were able to wed two sisters legally in California! You really believe you did it eh? Both incest and same sex marriage are illegal in California. Look up California Penal Code 285, California Family Code - Part 2 Judicial Determination of Void or Voidable Marriage, and Section 7.5 of the Declaration of Rights of the California Constitution. See? This is why you should have a real education. Why waste your time in all this silliness? Just get a real degree if you want one and quit screwing up with other people's lives using your fake and meaningless "doctorate." Only losers get tempted to obtain ordination from such notorious credential mills like ULC, and you are a billion times more of a loser for attempting to justify it.
But I bet he has a real degree aside from the meaningless one he got from the religious credential mill.
Yes, a associates degree in electronics. He did not get a degree from ULC, just a minister certificiate (or what ever it was).
I didn't say a legal wedding I said a wedding as in a religious act with the churches commitment certificate, since it was not a secular act and not therefore a legal one the state has nothing to say about it. And it was a Florida wedding I live here the church HQ is in California. I had a reason I oppose ministers of any stripe having the power to legally recognize marriage so by doing this I showed that marriage is not a secular act and further that marriage is not all that sacred its just a commitment between two consenting parties in this case. [They did have all the legal contracts a gay couple would have done as well I witnessed but again that is a private not state matter.] In fact I want to see marriage as an institution end for private arrangements between any two or more adult parties if a woman wants three men and five women as spouses why not let them its simply their choice get the government and faith out of it. (sorry like most clergy I tend to preach a bit now and then)
Oh and my associates is in accounting from Moraine Park Technical College in WI hardly a mill just a good, not-for-profit career college. Check it out yourself.
And if I was a religious man and believed the bible god is a monster, a horror of horrors with less morals than Hitler had in fact Hitler did acknowledge a creator in Mein Kamph so why would I promote that thing. I'm a RATIONAL HUMANIST that is I use reason, common sense and okay my own sense of humor to make my way in the world and promote that over mumbo jumbo the various cults promote. So joined the ULC as my church since none of the other faiths would likely have me and they are a fun group. I respect my religious peers in the church just I think if there is a deity out there its either neutral and uncaring OR so alien we don't have the power to understand it. If the holy book the Bible is used then ministers clearly don't read the stories and morality it represents clearly.
I did ask a question is my ordination illegal under any law of the land, not talking powers to marry or not, but the ability of my church to confirm me as a minister and is there a law demanding ministers have any formal training? (seriously show me the law that says to be a minister you must have this number of hours training or this or that degree or a state license in the US or its territories)
And I do have the ULC degree Doctor of Metaphysics but don't usually feel the need to note it unless prodding those with fancy degrees looking down on others, I use just my title Cleric or my title Free Thinker which are granted by my church for a small donation.
Here is the Wikipedia article on the church do you think our founder did not take his work seriously and we have some basic things we all as clergy agree on, just those are fairly simple. First our founders information:
Kirby J. Hensley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He was in fact a preacher, ordained clergyman and illiterate so education clearly is not the big issue with ones faith or choice to promote a path.
Universal Life Church
Universal Life Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And its not a religious degree mill we issue perfectly valid legal degrees under California's religious exemption for people wishing one, like I said if one thinks about that and our founder of the ULC it kind of fits our mission. It may be unorthodox but give us credit at least we don't pretend they are more than they are anyone can check the website and find out about any degree someone has, that they cost this much and if there is a test or not required to get one. Wouldn't a mill try to hide it or at least make them appear like a formal degree?
Of course it does. You said you “married” them; marriage is a legal act and not necessarily a religious act. That is why we have civil weddings that are performed by public officials in a non-religious manner and setting. You don’t need a fake doctorate from the most notorious religious credential mill in the Country just to perform a fake or play acting “marriage.” If this is what you’re saying then you didn’t really “marry” anybody, you just wasted their time, your time, and our time here for telling us this stupid story. What a disgusting person you are. You must be a complete psychopath to conduct this meaningless “ceremony” making fun of an incestuous and homosexual couple’s emotions duping them into thinking that you were able to unite them in matrimony against the law of the state.
It makes no difference if you’re in Florida. Incest is a crime in Florida under the 2005 Florida Code Ch. 826.04. Likewise, same sex marriage is also illegal in Florida, see Proposition 2 (The Marriage Protection Amendment of 2008).
There can be no legal contracts because both incest and same sex marriage are illegal in Florida, and if there is a legal contract then it is also a state matter and not just confined to being a private matter. You are a very confused individual. Do you even know what “legal contract” means?
You are not a clergy. You are just a simpleton who got conned into buying a meaningless title from a notorious religious credential mill and sincerely believes that you can now conduct real weddings even between siblings and/or couples of the same gender regardless of the law of the State. You are the only one who thinks you are a real clergy, everyone else see you as some mentally-deranged clown.
Marriage annulled on basis that ULC minister lacked qualifications under New York Statutes: no congregation and not appointed by head of ecclesiastical order.
Marriage annulled on basis ULC minister lacked actual church or stated meeting place.
New York City right to deny license to ULC ministers upheld.
Thank you for confirming what I have said that you don’t even have a bachelor’s degree. This is what I said:
So, before falsely claiming to have a “doctorate degree” in anything, realize that your “doctorate,” which you just bought for $10.00 after being instantly “ordained” by ULC (a notorious religious credential mill) is meaningless and fake and that in the real world (not in the fantasy world where you have the power to marry sisters in Florida) you would need to go a little bit further than your associate’s degree before you can have a real doctorate. Got it?:fing02:
Separate names with a comma.