Pat Robertson wants US to assissinate Chavez

You tell me why I do; I'll bet you can figure it out. And the actions of the Islamic extremists aren't at the top of my list of reasons.

 

Actually, one of those involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler was a pastor and theologian: Bonhoeffer. See http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Bonhoeffer.htm

Of course, I don't think anybody is going to compare Bonhoeffer with Robertson!

Matt

 

Fauss, the 1 billion Muslims in the world are an amazingly diverse group of people, many of whom feel outraged and deeply embarrassed by calls for "jihad" and suicide bombings. One of the recent targets of fanatic terror bombings in the Middle East and even South Asia have been Sufi groups, the Muslim mystics who have a significantly different interpretation of Islam.

Must we have a strong response to terrorism? YES! I even agree that on certain level, some degree of ethnic profiling is acceptable. I look fairly Middle-Eastern, and as a result I am more likely to be pulled aside and searched on an airport security line. On one level, it's a drag. On another level, however, my only response can be that which I gave to someone whining about the airport security line ahead of me a few months after 9/11: "Consider the alternative!"

In my opinion, we need to be careful not to make our statements so sweeping that it encompasses people who are neither jihadis nor sympathizers.

Matt

 

Ike, thank you for your comments. I totally agree with you in terms of the fatwas. It is so unbelievable that people would easily accept the actions or views of some christian fanatics as very palatable and precious, but would easily denounce similar actions or views of some muslim fanatics as hateful, despicable, unpalatable, wrong, etc. I believe wrong is wrong regardless of religious affiliation. I appreciate your comments and thank you for sharing your noble mind with us. Thank you.

 

No, I hate Islam not because its doctrines inspire some to lunacy, but because I believe it's an untrue religion that leads a billion down the path to eternal destruction. I believe there's one way to heaven: through the One who died for our sins. I hate anything that obfuscates that truth.

But I do not hate the ones misled. I grieve for them and pray for them.

 

I can only say that although I'm not a Christian, something utterly different keeps me out of their churches.

I think that it's a GOOD thing that their religious tradition has grown beyond sending out its knights of faith to cleanse the world of evil with the fire of torture and mass murder, in the name of Christ's saving love, under the banner of the triumphant cross.

I fear that if we return to "good old testament fire and brimstone", we might lose whatever distinguishes us from those we fear.

 

You hate all religious beliefs that are different than yours?

That would be pretty extreme even if you could produce some convincing reasons why your own beliefs are true and everyone else's are false. But you can't.

In any case it's probably better to simply disagree with beliefs that you think are mistaken. Hate is a corrosive passion that eats at people internally and contributes to crazy actions socially.

 

Standing on the sidelines, watching others go at it even better than I ever could have.

It's truly amazing to me the emotion this event has stirred-up. Maybe, like janko, I've just had Robertson's number for so long, and have been feeling like my observations and complaints about him have always fallen on deaf ears, that I guess I'm just not surprised by any of it. If I'm surprised by anything, it's that it took this for everyone to finally see what a worthless piece-o-crap Robertson's always been.

Robertson and his ilk are a huge part of what's wrong with both the religious Right generally, and the Republican party specifically. The Republican party, for all the negative things that I say about it, would be downright respectable if it could just rid itself of the influence of Robertson, et al.

By my way of thinking, it was only a matter of time before Robertson, in his irrepressible zeal, finally revealed himself for the godawful human being that at least I -- and certainly janko -- have always (and by that I mean, at least in my case, that means from the first words I ever heard him utter) known that he is. And always has been. He's a hypcrite and a liar and a heretic and he's dangerous. And always has been.

And I don't know why anyone here would be afraid to judge him as a "bad" Christian. First, in my opinion, it's a stretch to even call him a Christian; and secondly, even if we can all agree that he's at least that, there can't be any question that he's a "bad" one.

What he did was come as close to issuing a bona fide fatwa as any Christian could ever do. Of course, the whole belief system and system laws which must be present in order for a fatwa to actually be a fatwa is missing when a Christian issues one, so that's not really what it is. Robertson ain't no Khalifah, or a Mufti or Qazi... thankgod... and "following" to his followers is very different from what it means to actually be a follower of a Mufti. So, even though he couldn't even get issuing a fatwa right, if we are to assess what he actually did do, we cannot but label it the awful sin that it most certainly is.

Just as we shake our heads in disbelief at the Mufti or Qazi who issues a real and actual fatwa against Americans and all with whom we associate, the world is, tonight, shaking its head in disbelief at Robertson; and sees him as just one more in a long line of evil -- and I mean genuinely evil -- members of the America's religious Right, and the Bush43 administration, that have come to represent to non-Americans around the globe what this country is now all about. And I, for one, am deeply, deeply ashamed.

Hating Islam, or commies, or any of the persons, groups or ideals that have been so thoroughly and effectively hated in this thread and elsewhere in today's America just exacerbates the problem; and makes us both look to others, and feel, even worse.

This is a complex problem to which we should not so easily apply generalizations. There are many Robertsons -- and Chavezes -- in the world. There always have been. There always will be. Robertson sees himself as a major player in America's religious and moral leadership; Chavez sees himself as the heir apparent to whatever is Castro's place in the universe. Wanting to be either of those things seems nuts to me. Worrying too awfully much about either of them seems downright crazy.

Or so says me... for what that's worth... which we all know ain't much.

 

Well, no.

Well . . . yes . . . perhaps in some regions.

But then again, we don't have Water Closets in this country.

We have restrooms, and peeing seems to be so much more restful than weeing.

Oh, well, never mind.

Doesn't "wee" have a doubled meaning in the UK, particularly in the far north?

As in "I'll have a wee dram."

I'd hate to think that the person intended to specify type rather than the size.

Nevertheless, back to the thread:

Robertson is a wart on the body politic and an chancre on the body of Christ.

There. I made it back.

Whew!



marilynd

 

And BTW, no one has been more critical than me about moderate Islamic clerics and believers NOT taking an open, public, extremely vocal stand against Islamic extremists.

However, we should be equally critical of those who keep Robertson, Falwell, Swaggert, Tilton, Bakker, etc. in positions of power.

[I would add Howard Stern's name to the lists.]

It is the same idolatrous, pack mentality, whatever the platform.



marilynd

 

No, hate for a belief system is not a corrosive force. Hate for a human being is, however, an extremely corrosive force and must be avoided at all costs.

I also hate Naziism, the ideology behind the Ku Klux Klan, the ideology that drove Stalin and Pol Pot to stack the bodies high, etc. Is that hate corrosive? Of course not!

When you hate those things worthy of hate and love those things worthy of love, it is anything but corrosive, it gives life and wisdom.

I know you're thinking: but who are you, Little Fauss, to determine which is which? And I would ask: who are you, Bill? Because you know full well that you have your own list of hates, and they probably include the Khmer Rouge, Naziism, slavery. Just because they do not include the ideology and beliefs of Islam--just because we differ on that one point--does not give you moral high ground to admonish me that hate will drive me to madness and irresponsible social actions. You have your own set of hates, have you been driven to social irresponsibility because you hate the ideology that drove men in the Antibellum South to lash the back of another over skin tone?

You must understand that however much you do not believe in my faith, I believe in it passionately, and my belief is neither the result of environment (I was not raised in this faith) nor blind unreasoning faith (I am anything but the type of person who believes without careful investigation, historical evidence, experiential evidence, etc--I think you know that. I am a skeptic's skeptic).

So, with that in mind, you must recognize that my belief that Jeshua was the Messiah (and not only that, but G-d in the flesh) and that He died for our sins--even those of close-minded right wing Christians, foam at the mouth terrorists, and above-it-all skeptics on forums such as this--and that that death on the cross and acceptance thereof is the only means by which one can enter Heaven, compels me to two unshakable beliefs:

1). I must love everyone and pray for them, because I know that G-d died for their sins as well as mine, and that they are always but once sincere prayer and moment of repentance from the Kingdom of G-d; and

2). That I must hate any belief system--including Islam--that blinds man's eyes to this truth.

 

Folks, please bear in mind that the above-named folks are not genuinely representative of what most Evangelicals believe, especially Evangelicals outside the US. The big bouffant TV preacher folks took a major credibility hit in the wake of the scandals in the late 1980's. For perspective, not long ago Christianity Today had an article on the Evangelical leadership, and quoted the New York Times' David Brooks (who is not a Christian) as encouraging his fellow journalists not to quote folks like Falwell and Robertson as though they spoke for Evangelicals. Worth reading in this context: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/108/12.0.html

(The article by Brooks quoted there is available here: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1290883/posts)

Of course, for fun and comedy relief, you could simply sit back and enjoy the famous video of Robert Tilton as "The Farting Preacher". Worth noting in this context is that at least the original one was made by an Evangelical (;-> http://www.milkandcookies.com/keywords/fartingpreacher/

Peace,

Matt F

 

Islam is not an ideology, Little Fauss. If it is, so is Christianity as this thread inevitable demonstrates. Furthermore, Islam is practiced around the world in different ways. Although I fully understand where you come from, the West should try to promote moderation within Islam. Otherwise, we are creating an even greater conflict for the future. What would we do with one billion adepts?

And regarding the topic of this thread, Chavez is an idiot, he promotes everything that is against the US or capitalism, he has consistently given shelter to terrorists, and he is an ally of Castro, a despicable dictator that has killed thousands through the years. But he’s basically an idiot, a clown in the meanest sense of the world. He has a TV show, Aló Presidente, where he solves problems for Venezuelan indigents, conflicts among neighbors, makeover for ladies and the like. He’s the Ricky Lake of the Caribbean, for God’s sakes. This is perhaps a common point between these two characters, they have a public pulpit to promote their ideology. How could Robertson, a former US President candidate, go that deep down to discredit this banana republic moron? Besides, how come no one explained to him that promoting the commission of a crime is a crime itself? (Isn’t it? )

 

Weasel.

 

Just a big mistake

Luckily, the whole thing has been cleared up. We just misinterpreted his remarks:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html

How could we have been so silly.

 

Maybe he was speaking in tongues.


Just to clarify:
Chavez is utter scum.
Nazis and Communists are genocidal monsters.


Confucius, who condemned regicide, said somewhere, referring to the monstrous last king of the Yin (Hsia) dynasty, who was "taken out": "I have heard that men killed a bandit named Chow. I have not heard that they killed a king."


Confucius also condemned shamanism (which would include Robertson.)

 

Ah, Uncle, but Hugo Chavez is popularly ELECTED scum!

And it's not like we've been neutral, either; when a right wing military junta attempted a coup against El Presidente, we not only BACKED the junta, we actually granted it RECOGNITION. (that fiasco, BTW, was yet another example of the present Administration's breathtaking incompetence in international affairs)

Apparently the U.S. favors democracy abroad so long as the people democratically elect someone we LIKE.

 

True... It's a democracy only and only if the people that agree with us are elected or selected by whatever means.

 

Islam is of course an ideology, and so is Christianity. All an ideology is is a set of doctrines and beliefs.

Of course there are different flavors of the same faith. I'm sure that Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Carter or C.S. Lewis and T.D. Jakes would struggle to find common ground on how they practice their faith. But they are all still of the same underlying faith. Their ideology regarding the belief in Jesus alone as the means to Heaven would be identical. If not, they couldn't rightly call themselves Christians--that's pretty much the definition of Christianity.

I'm not even one thousand miles from making pronouncements about geopolitical strategies regarding moderation with Islamic states; I'll leave that to the politicians.

All I am saying is that I hate Islam as a faith, as an ideology. And the primary reason I hate it is not because of rogue states that are Islamic. The Baathist regime in Iraq, for that matter, was only nominally Islamic; Saddam was a secular despot who, at most, used religion to his own ends, but not as anything like a true believer.

I hate Islam because it misleads a billion people into not acknowledging their only hope for truth and joy and eternal life. That's why I hate Islam. Because it's false; it teaches lies.