Oregon and Kennedy-Western

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Alan Contreras, Mar 2, 2005.

  1. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Re: Re: California equal to accredited?


    I would ask the question slightly differently. With SO MANY legitimate and accredited schools offering programs in so many different fields at extrememly low cost why would someone want to choose a questionable unaccredited school that could EASILY end up being a HUGE waste of both time and money? The answer? They wouldn't.
  2. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Oregonensis or (if you must) oregonica. Cripes.
  3. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: California equal to accredited?

    States authorize schools to legally function. That leaves the schools with considerable flexibility. They can roll out accreditable programs and then seek to have them accredited by any one of a dozen accreditors. And some (not all) states will allow them to remain unaccredited if they so desire. Perhaps these schools can acquire credibility some other way. Or perhaps not.
  4. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Russ, I notice that you (once again) dodged the question of how legitimate non-accredited programs can be distinguished from substandard ones in the absence of accreditation.

    You attack us over and over for not embracing non-accredited programs quickly enough or broadly enough for your liking. You tell us that you oppose degree mills. But you have never explained how we can embrace non-accredited schools without embracing mills and substandard schools at the same time.

    You really need to address that question and stop dancing away from it.

    You didn't read them until I pointed them out to you.

    If you think that the Oregon definitions are a joke, then presumably you have better ideas of your own. What are they?

    There is no UC Long Beach.

    Didn't you just say that CSULB made Spielberg write papers for the classes that he wanted credit for? It's true that Spielberg was probably teaching them. But he still had to turn in the work before he got his degree.
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    You are arguing for academic fraud. There are RA schools where 100% of the degree can be "tested out" or use of portfolio credit can be granted. Unaccredited schools can't be trusted, in general. RA schools can be trusted. Have you read the articles that are located by clicking on the article tab at the top of this page? Read it and then you can see the difference between academic fraud "life experience" and academic rigorous credit. Read and then point me to a single unaccredited school that evaluates life experience the academic rigorous way. If you can't point out one then you are arguing for academic fraud. Just ONE Russ, if you can't do it (which I know you won't) then you ARE a shill for academic fraud, a plain and simple shill arguing in support of academic fraud. If you don't like that simple fact then educate yourself and change.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2005
  6. russ

    russ New Member

    One way to determine the value or worth of a degree from a particular institution is to allow employers and the market to determine a degree's worth, not some bureaucrats. I, as an employer, can use my own judgement to decide if some schools and their degree programs are better than others. I don't need the state looking over my shoulder. I am fine with caveat emptor.
  7. russ

    russ New Member


    This is misinformation. I was talking about life experience credits not non-traditional methods such as CLEP exams and testing out. Those are two different animals.

    If an unaccredited school in California had done what CSU Long Beach with Steven Spielberg, Oregon would have had a fit. Spielberg did not test out and his capstone project was waived. No CLEP exams, no testing at all. I agree with what CSU Long Beach did but it certainly implies a double standard since they are an RA school and an unaccredited school would have been treated much differently.

    Kennedy-Western could have allowed Spielberg to get a degree the same way and Oregon would say the degree is not valid and cannot be used on a resume.
  8. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    If you're serious about this then it only demonstrates your inexperience in the business world. You actually expect a prospective employer to go to the time and expense of trying to determine if a job applicant's academic degree is up to snuff? Why would they do that when there are applicants with accredited degrees (that means, by definition, they're up to snuff)

    "Well, let's see Mr. Smith. You've taken English Lit 101 and these are the essays you've written. OK, I'll check these out and then, for our second interview, I'll look at your work for English Lit 201."

    If you're really fine with caveat emptor then you won't mind if I reject your unaccredited degree(s).
  9. uncle janko

    uncle janko member


    Well, one thing we can all be sure of, and that's that Mr Spielberg's career will be greatly enhanced by that Long Beach degree. Of course, buying a mill degree would have made him look even better. Gimme a break. I don't see anything wrong with what CSULB did. I wouldn't have seen anything wrong if the preaccreditation CCU had done it. But there's no way Kennedy Western would have required all that work from the fellow. Or Pacific Western. Or any other silly entity. No reason for the fellow not to be proud of his earned degree. Will anyone but him care? No. But if he'd bought one of these precious mill degrees, somebody might care that he had written proof of being either an idiot (we can rule that one out) or a liar.

    And, yes, Schindler's List was a great movie. And that was quite enough Spielberg for me. Never saw any of his other stuff. Never will.
  10. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    This, of course, answers the question as to who you believe should determine a degree’s worth, rather than how the value or worth of a degree should be determined. The question pertained to ”how”, not ”who”. Therefore, Russ, in your opinion, how should employers and “the market” determine a degree’s worth?

    Once again, what criteria would you use in making such a judgment, and why should other employers or “the market" also employ such criteria?

    Caveat emptor is the mantra of every con artist. :rolleyes:
  11. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Ummm Russ

    Sorry. Wrong yet again. Non-traditional credit includes various methods. You do have to actually PROVE you know the information but that should be true of ANY system that grants credit.

    You are correct when you say the ODA is tougher on KWU, PWU, and other highly questionable or outright frauds. Accredited schools have already proven themselves and Oregon has chosen to accept that as proof of their honesty and thoroughness. Unaccredited schools for the most part are in the exact opposite situation.

    They often are willing to give "life experience" degrees to the local janitor as long as his cc is good. So, considering their unproven nature and the history of such schools Oregon does require more of them. Just as it should be,
  12. Jake_A

    Jake_A New Member


    Your response to my post is/was not responsive. You did not directly (or indirectly) answer any of the four questions I put to you, which I culled from an information-laden post that Dr. Contreras had made earlier.

    Question #1 (below) should be/should have been easy for you to answer. If you know what a "standard" is, then hopefully, you will know what a standard IS NOT. Similarly, if you know what "substandard" is, then by extrapolation, you will know what substandard IS NOT.

    Here are the questions, again, that your response/post characteristically did not answer:

    The several excellent and fact-filled posts by BillDayson, Jack Tracey, Gus Sainz, DaveHayden, Uncle Janko, Bill Huffman and Dr. Richard Douglas above may help you in framing your responses. Then again, they may not, or better yet, will not, if you continue to ignore information in favor of MIS-information.

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2005
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately, you ascribe an expertise to a set of people, employers, that do not enjoy that particular attribute.

    Should employers be experts in higher education? Wouldn't it be simpler to allow them to rely on the validity of degrees instead? Now, I'm the first guy in line to say the way to beat these things (degree mills, drug dealers, etc.) is to go after demand, not supply. Shutting down a degree mill only creates an opening for another. Educating users (students, their employers, and the general public) seems to be the way to go. But it's not that simple. We should also go after fake schools wherever possible, limiting the exposure wherever we can.

    The existence of fake schools--despite what the market does--dilutes the value of legitimate degrees earned by everyone. Therefore, I take what you say very personally. You're dead wrong.
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    For the employer i can asure that in the degree is Professionaly Accredited than the evaluation was cariedout by representatives of the industry, I served on ABET board for a year as a volontier.
    most of the members are well respected Engineering and Technology practitioners with active careers including educators in universities, far from buricrats I would say.

    Now for employers I may say that I realy like what and how they participate in Vocational qualifications in UK.
    Now NVQ 5 is Masters degree.

    What are the advantages of the NVQ route to qualifications rather than the traditional routes of courses and examinations?

    A. The advantages of the NVQ route are as follows:

    ·There are no formal entry requirements.

    · It can be gained in a variety of ways

    · It takes into account previous relevant experience

    · It allows someone to work at their own pace · Assessments are based on what happens in the workplace

    · Credit is given for what someone can do as well as what they know

    · Units can be gained one at a time and used to obtain the NVQ certificate when a full set of units has been achieved

    Q. How does an employer benefit from a qualified workforce?

    A. Employers involved have been impressed by the commitment of their staff and realise that staff qualified by the work based route will move their business forward by providing them with:

    · Highly motivated people who can contribute to improving efficiency and productivity

    · Minimum disruption to their day-to-day business.

    · Access to Quality initiative that is in line with "Investors in People" and ISO2002
  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Correct, they are two different animals, academic fraud and verification of learned knowledge are definitely two different animals. You are arguing for academic fraud, plain and simple. Life experience like is done by unaccredited schools DOES NOT ensure learned knowledge. It is a gimmick, a scam, a trick to make the victim think that they have earned a degree when they haven't.

    Russ, you are being totally ridiculous. The project was to produce and direct one's own movie. It was recognized that Steven Spielberg had already satisfied that requirement. The difference between academic fraud and an earned degree in this case is that everything else that needed to be done for the degree would have also been waved as complete by the unaccredited diploma mills. All that other work that involved writing papers and going to class.

    KWU is a diploma. The difference between CSU and KWU is that ANYONE can go there and get a meaningless diploma for about the same amount of work be they Steven Spielberg or the most incompetent loser on the planet. Everyone can earn a Bachelor's degree at that diploma mill after taking about 5 to 7 classes. That is the difference between CSU and KWU. KWU will let anyone have a free pass at about 100 college credits. CSU won't. It is silly to argue that because Steven Spielberg didn't have to produce a movie for his Bachelor degree that a diploma mill should be allowed to let everyone have a diploma if they can pass about a half dozen classes. A Bachelor's degree is 120 semester credits. You tell us that everyone is entitled to go to KWU and get this degree for doing about 20 credits.

    I really don't understand Russ. Please explain to me. This is so ridiculous that I don't understand how anyone could possibly argue this. Please explain to me.
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: California equal to accredited?

    This is tantamount to calling me a liar, which I really don't appreciate, especially from an anonymous troll.

    Saying it doesn't make it so. Can you back it up? I can.

    There is no research that shows California-Approved degrees have any academic standing anywhere beyond what unaccredited degrees generally do: none.

    There is some reason to believe that California Approval has some effect on degree acceptability in the workplace. My doctoral research suggested that, but it dropped when employers found out that California Approval isn't the same as accreditation. (Of course, California Approval does weigh in a few state-regulated professions and licensure for them.)

    There is also no research to suggest that employers (nor schools) in California give greater credence to California Approval than do employers (and schools) outside California.

    If "Dr. Latin Juris" has information to the contrary, I'm sure we'd all like to read it. If not, he should quit accusing me of falsehoods. Doesn't that make him a liar?
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

  18. Jake_A

    Jake_A New Member


    The fact that some in UK business and industry are criticizing the unproven NVQs by referring to them as meaning "No-Value Qualifications" or "Not Very Qualified," must give you pause in extolling their virtues.

    In the absence of published data suggesting that NVQs may be valid and acceptable substitutes for rigorous and externally-imposed institutional quality reviews, one would be prudent and circumspect in not immediately beginning to vouch for the NVQ system.

    These NVQs are an attempt to create a qualification category that concentrates on general skills rather than on developing proficiency in the products of one specific vendor (e.g. IT).

    In the lexicon continuum of "basic-proficient-advanced," NVQs, in the view of some, may not even approach the "basic" categorization.

    The thus-far tepid reception and reviews of the NVQs in certain expert UK vocational education segments point to the veracity of Dr. Douglas's observation.

    Ditto, for the following.

    It really behoves all and sundry to remember these profound words of Dr. Douglas:

  19. Alan Contreras

    Alan Contreras New Member

    In general, Russ's argument is that employers get to decide whether a degree meets their needs. This is another way of saying that the degree itself may not be necessary (why did Spielberg bother?).

    It is also another way of saying that a degree is, ultimately, just a piece of paper. That is the standard view taken by people who support diploma mills. I would be interested to hear from Russ the names of some degree suppliers whose product he would consider unfit for use in his business.

    The state's position is that a degree should have an irreducible minimum core of academic work that is demonstrably at the college level appropriate for the award. That is, a doctoral degree must include original research or something equivalent.

    The state's position is that a private employer should never accept an unaccredited degree as a valid credential unless the employer actually investigates the nature of the supplier and its degrees, or relies on ODA to do so.

    The state's position is that all unaccredited degrees should be treated by private employers as being of doubtful quality unless the supplier can demonstrate to the employer that the degrees represent genuine academic work of sufficient quantity and quality.

    Doubt and the expectation of evidence are attributes of thinking people who care about the difference between truth and falsehood.

    Sorry about the oregonus, Uncle J, I borrowed it from the Oregon subspecies of Spotted Towhee. And you can see one more Spielberg movie: Empire of the Sun.
  20. Morgan Khanstein

    Morgan Khanstein New Member

    The Spielberg example is rather interesting, and I wasn’t aware of it. It strongly calls into question what outcomes we are looking for in higher education, and what we expect of a degree holder. The case implies that it is not just mastery of a skill that one achieves, which could arguably be demonstrated in his case. If it were, then any mill could grant a degree to anyone with a demonstrated "technical" mastery. Instead, there must be something else to be gained by doing the coursework, and thus some other reason for achieving a degree.

    I would suggest these other skills might include: solid problem-solving skills, a knowledge of the methods and history of the field, a broader awareness of “global issues,” which would facilitate the student’s ability to synthetically combine various disciplines, their approaches and issues (e.g. humanities with social sciences), good writing skills, etc.

    I can’t imagine that any accelerated program (accredited or not, but especially most of the "nots") could assist a student to master these types of skills.


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