Oregon and Kennedy-Western

So, I guess if a person does not agree with you they are labeled "degree shill" so you don't have to actually respond to their post. Did you read the report by Dr. Erikson? Is he wrong, lying, living in fantasy land, or is he right on target?

I don't work for KW. I don't even work in the education industry, profit or non-profit. I have never taken a class at KW and I doubt any of the critics here have either. How do you know you can't get an education there? At least one person here is taking courses at KW and believes they are getting an education.

 

Re: Re: Re: Au Jus

So, I guess if a person does not agree with you they are labeled "degree shill" so you don't have to actually respond to their post. Did you read the report by Dr. Erikson? Is he wrong, lying, living in fantasy land, or is he right on target?

I don't work for KW. I don't even work in the education industry, profit or non-profit. I have never taken a class at KW and I doubt any of the critics here have either. How do you know you can't get an education there? At least one person here is taking courses at KW and believes they are getting an education.

 

So, I guess if a person does not agree with you they are labeled "degree shill" so you don't have to actually respond to their post. Did you read the report by Dr. Erikson? Is he wrong, lying, living in fantasy land, or is he right on target?

I don't work for KW. I don't even work in the education industry, profit or non-profit. I have never taken a class at KW and I doubt any of the critics here have either. How do you know you can't get an education there? At least one person here is taking courses at KW and believes they are getting an education.

 

Re: Re: Re: Au Jus

So, I guess if a person does not agree with you they are labeled "degree shill" so you don't have to actually respond to their post. Did you read the report by Dr. Erikson? Is he wrong, lying, living in fantasy land, or is he right on target?

I don't work for KW. I don't even work in the education industry, profit or non-profit. I have never taken a class at KW and I doubt any of the critics here have either. How do you know you can't get an education there? At least one person here is taking courses at KW and believes they are getting an education.

 

Scots verdict: not proven.

And Chief Swift Eagle owns Mars and the moon.

 

You have to love that:

1. SRU's lawyer uses a yahoo address.

2. It's legal department uses a university-services.net address

3. Oh no, Chip White and George Gollin are conspiring. Whatever will SRU do?

4. Ooh, and George has recruited Alan Contreras!

5. Apparently, no one is allowed here to defend SRU. Wonder why?

6. And the big doofus statement of the millenium is that, unless the University of Illinois takes down all of Professor Gollin's information on SRU, it appears that SRU will sue them.

The University of Illinois.

Sued by SRU.

Can SRU really, truly be that stupid?



Probably.



Tom Nixon

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Au Jus

Russ,

Once again your post is just WRONG in so many ways! I love discussing issues with people that disagree with me and back up their statements with facts and evidence. You make illogical statements and NEVER back them up. Even when people take the time to explain the concepts you don't understand you repeat the tired "K-W party lines" without facts or substantiation.

I don't know if you work for K-W or not. Quite frankly I don't believe what you post because I think you are more intelligent than the illogical irrational statements you make. You could be a K-W or other degree mill employee. You could just be a typical troll who enjoys yanking people's chains and thowing out misinformation.

As to K-W, we have multiple reports on them from several students. They require a maximum of 5-8 "classes" for a BA/BS degree no matter what your previous college credit/life experience. Their "classes" consist of reading one text book and taking one unproctored test. "Professors" are available for tutoring by student request, meaning there is NO required Professor/Student interaction.

Is this of some educational value? Sure. Is it in ANY way a College Education? NO! Not even close. Yet K-W insists on calling this experience something it isn't and defrauding both their students and others! Your support of this fraud is what makes you a shill, paid or otherwise.

 

Dave,

It is my understanding that almost all DL program students do not require interaction with their professors other than their tests being graded. It is up to the student to have the self discipline to read assigned text and be tested on it. The big difference may be proctored vs. unproctored exams. I agree that it is preferable to have proctored exams if nothing else to verify the identity of the person taking the test. Nonetheless, having a professor grade your exam is not teaching you anything. A computer can grade your exam.

It comes down to a qualitative difference of how the institutions conduct business. In my opinion, that qualitative difference can be recognized by any employer and acted on accordingly. If the employer has two applicants and one has a degree from KW and the other from Oregon State University, the employer can decide if they want to consider one applicant as having a higher quality of education than the other.

What most people here seem to be concerned about is the dilutive effect of degrees that require less work than other degrees. That has always been the case anyway, and is getting worse, but not due just to unaccredited schools. Through grade inflation and the pure laziness of some college professors students at RA schools are doing less and less work to get the same degree that previous students had to really study for. Even Harvard has been accused of grade inflation. I know from personal experience that RA schools have professors who will let you give yourself any grade you wish on an exam no matter how many questions you may have got wrong.

As an employer, the applicant's degree is usually less important than their attitude, professional appearance, actual experience in the field and communication skills among other factors.

 

Russ

You are mistaken. Most if not all accredited DL programs require study AND interaction with the student's class and Professor. To reduce a college level class to the reading of one book and an unproctored test is the mark of a degree mill. (Yes, I know people can find an example or two of accredited classes that are similiar but they are the exception)

That combined with K-W's 5-8 class Bachelors and Masters degrees that can be finished in weeks without prior knowledge cements K-W's position as a degree mill.

 

Please do not leave out the KWE "doctorate degrees" - they also require 5-8 "courses" (mostly, but documented range is 4-9 "courses") plus one open-book exam and paper.

A diploma mill/degree mill by any other name spells "KWE" and the like.

A diploma mill/degree mill shill by any other name spells "russ" et al.

LOL.

 

How original Jake. Did you come out of the woodwork just to spout the same garbage that others already do here or do you have a mind of your own?

 

Dave,

Maybe we have a definitional problem. To me, diploma mills are those who require no work at all and will send you a degree upon receipt of a payment of funds. Once educational work (of any kind) is required to receive the degree, then that particular definition no longer applies and you are now dealing with subjective sets of criteria. Who has defined the amount of work that is necessary for all students to receive their legitimate college degree?

Ward Churchill, the professor at the University of Colorado who declared the 9-11 victims as "little Eichmanns" and is getting a lot of grief for it (as he should), obtained his degrees from Sangamon State, an experimental college which assigned no work and gave no grades and was eventually turned into the University of Illinois-Springfield. He has an RA accredited bachelors and masters degree from Sangamon and was head of his department at the University of Colorado until the latest controversy.

The amount of real work and effort to obtain a degree can vary significantly, even at RA schools as this example proves. I don't know what the minimum amount of work should be to say you have a degree, do you?

 

Russ

Will KW fall under this category posted on the US
State department web site.

http://www.educationusa.state.gov./accred.htm


American State-Licensed Universities

Many students find that U.S. state-licensed/approved programs can meet their objectives, since costs are low in comparison, programs are highly accessible (usually with no residency requirements) and courses tend to be vocationally-biased towards "degree completion" for adults, including credits for work experience.

Diploma Mills

A diploma mill (or degree mill) is often defined as an illegal institution that grants bogus degrees in exchange for money, and without requiring the student to show proof of course mastery, or to do any substantive coursework or testing.


An inferior school operating just inside the law can also be a poor choice, since although the institute may not be a diploma mill according to the above definition, the degree awarded may not be held in high regard.


Learner

 

Thanks, Learner. I would say that the US State Department is authoritative and credible in it's definition of "diploma mills" or "degree mills." A part of the diploma mill definition that was left out was:

'Diploma Mills'

Diploma mills should be reported to the appropriate authorities (such as a local government education agency). They not only do great harm to their "graduates", and to society in general, but also give legitimate alternative and non-traditional education a bad name. With the advent of the Internet, diploma mills have been appearing more frequently.


Since the State Department suggests that diploma mills should be reported to proper authorities (with the intent to prosecute or shut down) I would have to say that KW does not qualify as a diploma mill under this definition. After all, the state of Oregon tried to call KW a diploma mill and were promptly put in their place and had to retract their statement.

Also, the phrase "substantive coursework or testing" is interesting in that there is a subjective element to the word "substantive" that is not easily defined. One person's definition may not be the same as another's.

The other part of the State Departments analysis that was intriquing was that state authorized schools (unaccredited schools) could be a good choice for students. With all the negative comments on this board, you would assume that no unaccredited school would be worthy of a student's interest. That is where I think the advice on this board, while some of it very helpful, can be harmful.

 

Since the State Department suggests that diploma mills should be reported to proper authorities (with the intent to prosecute or shut down) I would have to say that KW does not qualify as a diploma mill under this definition

But neither did Columbia State, which operated for several years before eventually, finally being shut down. Or Monticello University, another unwonderful institution.

K-W, Monticello, and Columbia State all have several things in common.

1. They all claim degree granting authority from a state with more lax laws than where most of their operation is located.

2. They have all moved across state lines (or at least moved a mailbox and/or one employee across state lines) when the state in which they were originally located toughened up its laws.

3. They all have some sort of work requirement (a bunch of "classes" consisting of reading books for Monticello, reading a couple of books and writing a paper or two for Columbia State, and taking a few nonrigorous courses for KW

4. They all had vigorous defenders who insisted their programs were legitimate.

What's different?

Two of the three have been shut down.

The third is still operating.

Many people have called K-W a diploma mill. And most have also called Monticello and Columbia State mills.

And I hope you see that your logic is flawed; just because it hasn't been shut down yet doesn't mean that K-W is not a mill. I'm not saying that it is, only that if you look at the Levicoff criteria or even the warning signs posted here on degreeinfo, K-W certainly raises an awful lot of red flags.

And that, friends, is why John Bear coined the term "Less than wonderful" to describe schools like K-W. These are schools (Monticello was once in this category) who claimed to be operating legally, and may have been, but whose degrees were worthless or otherwise of extremely limited utility.

The sad thing is, because K-W is spending so much money advertising itself, it may just have a chance in gaining legitimacy, in much the way the worthless Clayton College of Natural Health is trying desperately to rewrite the rules on naturopathy in various states so it's graduates (who read nontechnical books and take unrigorous exams to "earn" their degrees) are able to practice medicine without adequate qualifications.

What is needed is for enough people to get sufficiently outraged at these gigantic miscarriages of justice to see that action is taken.

Yes it's sad that thousands of people bought fake Columbia State degrees, or near-worthless K-W degrees, or unwonderful Clayton degrees, but just because a bunch of people were stupid enough to get taken doesn't make the school legitimate.

 

AICS was substandard school, run by the same operator of Chadwick. They had some programming classes and many viewd their programs as equal to couple semesters in average State university or college.

They cleaned their act, and applied for DETC accreditation, so wile
berely legal and substandard they did what it takes.

KW may elect the above path.

And they should disengaige drom bad business practices, when they loock their students is a contract that basicaly make them pay full tuition even if they drop after one class.
their refund policy should be fair and ethical.

I think that legal status such as license in some of the states
should be used as a temporary status leading to recognized accreditation.

 

What is or is not a diploma mill depends on the wording of the laws in different jurisdictions. The current Oregon definitions, revised by the Commission on February 18, 2005, are as follows.

(9) "Standard School" means a school that is accredited by a federally recognized U.S.-based accreditor, has ODA approval to issue degrees in Oregon, has ODA approval as a non-Oregon U.S. based school under ORS 348.609(d) or has ODA approval as a foreign school under ORS 348.609(a).

(10) "Diploma mill" or "degree mill" means an entity that is not a standard school and meets any one of the following conditions.
(a) Issues degrees without requiring sufficient college-level student academic work.
(b) Is a U.S. entity without appropriate governmental approval to issue degrees.
(c) Is a non-U.S. entity that has not demonstrated the foreign equivalent of U.S. accreditation.

 

Alan

Is there a room for a new school in Oregon?

That initially may not be accredited but will work on gaining such accreditation.

Is there a provision for a temporary exemptin so the new school can achieve the accreditation status?

Learner

 

Yes, Oregon, unlike some states, allows unaccredited schools to start here. There is no requirement that such schools ever become accredited, as long as they go through the ODA evaluation and approval process every three years.

For example, Gutenberg College, a small "Great Books" school, operated unaccredited for almost ten years until achieving accreditation last year.

 

If a school is operating legally, it is operating legally - end of story. Your objection goes to the quality of the education provided by the school which is in the eye of the beholder. There are RA schools that provide very low quality educations as well yet they are still regionally accredited.

The business plan is different in that if you can study a college level textbook and pass an exam based on that book, you get college credit. All you are missing is some overpaid tenured prof's rhetoric hour after hour. For some people and their learning and life styles, this structure may be preferable to attending classes.

Whether a degree is worthless or not should be up to a potential employer, not some government agency. I am a private employer and if I want to have only employees that come from "good" schools, I can make that judgement about which schools are better than others. If someone has a KW degree and I am willing to accept that, that again is my choice.