Masters Propio (ENEB, etc)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Jul 4, 2020.

  1. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I checked the Anabin web site for german recognition of foreign degrees, it looks like all the private Universities in CR are H +/-

    Universidad Empresarial de Costa Rica San Jose Private Hochschule H +/- Costa Rica

    H +/- Costa Rica:In Costa Rica, private universities distinguish between institutional accreditation and degree-related accreditation. It is therefore not only the status of the institution that is decisive for the recognition of a Costa Rican private university degree in Germany. Proof of accreditation of the respective course is also a prerequisite. Some of the recognized courses are assigned to the institutions as "degrees".

    Degree programs that are completed as part of international agreements or distance learning are generally not recognized.

    The lack of recognition has nothing to do with the cited article. It is extended to all the private schools in CR, all the degrees completed at distance are not recognized.
  2. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I wholeheartedly agree.

    GTF is a fantastic example, as well. That's an unaccredited school many people wear with pride. I don't have a problem with that, personally. But I don't like misrepresentation.

    Of course, it happens with accredited schools as well. I recall one job applicant who claimed to have two Masters degrees, earned concurrently from two different universities, as part of a joint program. As it turned out, there was a joint program but it did not end in two degrees. You just got a one semester experience and some credits with an easy transfer from one school to the other. Also, when we asked the school they told us all of this as well as the fact that this person had been told, numerous times, to stop claiming they had a degree from that school.

    How do we know this?

    Don't piss off your roommate if your roommate has dirt on you.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  3. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes _ I think I may have mentioned that recently - it is said to have been operated by remote control from Arizona and also Poland. I believe some Americans were involved in both operations.
  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    They have CONESUP but not SINAES which is better-accepted standard accreditation. Only about one third of Costa Rican private universities have SINAES. It's voluntary for them.
    H+ (Anabin) means acceptable in Germany. H- indicates deficient. H+/H- means a mixture of both. Degrees having a "reconocido" will be acceptable - others won't. Obviously the distance degrees etc. and the propios are all unacceptable in Germany.

    This university and its disregard for its own country's hard-and-fast rules (e.g. no distance degrees allowed for this school) makes me think there are good propios, bad propios and simply awful ones. There may be some dispute as to the number and type - but I think this school has definitely done some very bad things in its time.
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I realize I'm late to the party here, Rich - but I want you to hear something: I don't really understand how your statement is relevant to the significance (or often, impossibility) of a 20-40-60K expenditure by a struggling family.

    If you want a story from me - my first full-time job was in a bank; I made $43 a week! But that was 1963. I got tired of it quickly and got a job in the consumer credit business, starting at $65 a week. 30 years later I retired from that field - at 50. Of course I had managed to make quite a bit more by that time, but providing for a family was still not easy. I'd graduated from my first two-year community college program at around age 46. It cost me about $2,500 -3,000 in the 80s. More college programs and University cost me considerably more after I retired - but it was easier by then. My kids were grown. Paid for education as I went, all through. No debt.

    I didn't have it as rough as a lot of people do -- but at least I can understand their situations. Realtively high income has its privilege; if you don't like or agree with reality, you can switch to another channel. I couldn't.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Forgot to add - I also earned a three year professional diploma at around 30. No cost to me - I couldn't have afforded it otherwise. My employer picked up the tab because it was work-related and I received four small-$ academic awards (merit scholarships) during the program. I think some of those awards got spent on groceries -or diapers - or repairs to my ten-year-old car. But hey, I had a house!

    Hope my story has been entertaining, Rich. I think you see where I was going here -- right?
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    People finance cars. People finance homes. People finance businesses. And yes, people finance degrees.

    It's an investment. I can see not being able to afford going after a degree at all. But if one is going to take the leap, one should be prepared to pay what it takes--even borrow it if necessary.

    So, money is a huge factor to decide if one can or should pursue a degree. But letting money drive the decision of which program to pursue is simply short-sighted.

    This isn't some sort of hard-and-fast rule. Each person's situation is his/her own. But I see so much hypothetical discussion around money, and very few posters who actually do it. (I didn't have any resources for either my MBA nor my PhD. I borrowed everything and I'll be paying it off for the rest of my life. But that's my personal story.)

    I did it. I'm very sympathetic to those who do not, chose not, or can not. But if one chooses to, I hope the considerations being weighed go far beyond the cash.
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Funny, because I had no income when I did my MBA, and a low military salary (and a wife and two kids) when I did my PhD. I didn't start earning what anyone would consider a "high income" until well after I did the doctorate. And it was the doctorate--specifically--that allowed it to happen. Those two degrees put me $70K into debt.

    I know I stated it in such matter-of-fact way. I just want people to realize that such an important choice and pursuit is complex and money shouldn't be the only driver, or even the most important.
  9. Asymptote

    Asymptote Active Member

    This is an interesting turn for this thread. Which leads me to think back to a thread I started a few weeks ago about the M.Phil. degree. It seems like people might finance a Ph.D., and if it pans out they make “bank.” But if people don’t complete the program, it is a massive waste. I suppose “ABD” doesn’t cut it in the long run? But what if we moved the Overton Window a tad so that an M.Phil. - if not enabling as much ROI as a solid Ph.D. - could still count for “total rewards.”
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I understand, Rich. I actually meant that relatively high income makes channel switching possible - but only once a person has arrived in that bracket. I wasn't of course, suggesting you were always there. You worked at getting there, obviously. But your remark did come across as flippant and trivializing - and I'll believe you when you say this was unintended. If you decided to go into 70K of debt because you figured it would pay off handsomely afterward - well, congratulations. Obviously, that choice worked for you. I'm glad. If it hadn't... well, we've talked about the glut of PhDs before - and the number of them on food stamps etc. I'm pleased that you're about as far as most law-abiding people can get from those circumstances.

    Right. Money shouldn't be the only driver. My point: for some, money - especially serious money - isn't a driver at all. It's more like an involuntary brake - or maybe the "boot" they put on your car (I've heard) if you have unpaid tickets in NYC. Lack of money can make things impossible. It's not all-important but with none - you can't do anything.

    That's all I wanted you to hear. Thanks for listening. As it goes in Latin - Veni, Dixi, Exivi - I came, I spoke, I left. Latin was the most fun I ever had with my clothes on, in high school. Never made a dime from it, though. Ever. But still fun.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm not convinced I'm there. After all, I am a humble civil servant. (Who's about to lose his paycheck for many, many months--if not forever.) I'm not sure where anyone would get the impression that I'm rich or something. I'm very far from that. But I've done okay since investing in--and earning--my PhD.

    And I did listen. I didn't meant to be so declarative, but I was reacting to yet another discussion of dollars instead of what makes sense in the (very) long run. I'd rather hear from more people who've actually done the investment (like you) instead of those who just talk about it all the time.

    One other thing: education can be financed. Yes, we can look at it as a "burden of debt." But we can instead look at it as an investment--not just in terms of money but also in terms of self-actualization and becoming the person you're meant to be. Yes, the monthly payments can be horrible--mine are nearly 5 figures annually until I'm 83. (Both Union and National were expensive.) But the payoffs can be enormous.

    If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -- Derek Bok, former president of Harvard
    Johann likes this.
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your well-considered response, Rich. I think we're in full agreement on the importance of education. Not everyone would have made the sacrifices that you made for yours - and there are some who, due to circumstances could not possibly make those - but most likely have /had the ability to do something. Far from what you did, possibly, but significant for them. It's a matter of both ability - and the will.

    I didn't say you were rich. And I can see how paying back your education loans would contribute to not being rich. I'm not going to be ill-mannered and go into details, (as I once did, out of pure maliciousness - and I apologize) but I think you would admit (with some pride of course - that's quite permissible) that you're in an above-average income bracket. That's all I was referring to. Income. That fact alone gives you certain privileges - and that's as it should be. I have no quarrel. Just 'keepin' it real' by reminding you of it. 'Nuff said. Movin' along...

    Now I know the extent of that sacrifice. I couldn't have done it. The very thought of debt in my old age scares me. Incurring that kind of liability, I think, would kill me. I'm completely mentally unprepared to have even considered it. At any payoff level at all. We're different men, Dr. Douglas. I respect your bravery - but lay no claim to such myself.

    Heard it. Know what he means. But it still sounds like a quip from an economically privileged academic. Like my English professor who asked me "What's OSAP." I explained to her that it was the Ontario Student Assistance Program - practically every student dealt with it - for student loans and grants. In US terms it's kind of like FAFSA and Pell Grants combined. She'd never even heard of it. (She'd never heard of Hip Hop either - but that's another story.) Neither can be written off as an age thing. We were both the same age - early 50s.

    I prefer "If you think a route to education is too expensive - try another route. Or another way to bite the bullet. Ignorance is always frighteningly expensive."

    Cheers - and thanks again.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  13. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    As all the the degrees above are just legal but not accredited, you might consider a religious degree from the US that leads to some generic title such as "Organizational Leadership". The degree below seems to be interested with courses in critical thinking, leadership and human relations for 1000 bucks

    I believe you have the right to put a PhD besides your name ("PhD (M. Organizational Leadership)"). That seems to be a decent designation.

    Of course Religious degrees have a bad rep in general but it might fit the bill for some looking for just for a legal designation.
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Ironically, that's about the only way to discharge the debt. Student loans are even impervious to bankruptcy. Ouch.
    Johann likes this.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Anyone can do that. You don't actually need to be a doctor to call yourself one. It's the use of the title--the context--that matters.

    You can go around calling yourself "doctor" in many situations and be just fine. Alternately, you can get into a lot of trouble with a legally-issued, even accredited, degree, depending on how, when, and where you use it.
  16. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I agree but many people come here with the obsession to get one from a legal institution so it can be disclosed in a CV.

    Let's see what designation looks more impressive in a CV:

    PhD, University Azteca, Mexico
    PhD, Universidad Empresarial, Costa Rica
    PhD, Universidad San Juan de la Cruz, Costa Rica,
    PhD, Universitam, Mexico
    PhD, Thomas Francis University, USA
    PhD, Universidad de Central Nicaragua, Nicaragua
    PhD, Equivalence for my hard work and knowledge, University of Life, US
  17. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    It might be the way you introduce yourself to people.

    RD: Hi, I'm Rich!

    MC: Must be nice...
  18. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I realize this. In Canada it's a little different. In the beginning, a bankrupt was fully discharged from student loans. Soon, many new grads (and early-leavers) went bankrupt as a sort of post-graduation ceremony. Then the law changed. A bankrupt would not have to repay student loan debt if ten years had elapsed. So many people waited ten years and then filed. Now - it's a bankruptcy judge's decision. He/she will decide how much of student loan debt has to be repaid and on what terms - each individual case.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  19. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Gee -- I wonder why that is?....

    I think we have now left the planet. we've gone from propio degrees from legit universities to less-than-legit schools and now Ethereal Institutes of the Whatever. We completely missed the Universal Life Church where titles and degrees range from $10 (Jedi Knight - a decent buy, as I see it) to $100 - Doctor of the Universe! How could Johann766 get a higher-sounding title than that? I prefer a dose of reality. I think I could find some solace and belief with a genuine Southern Hoodoo Queen. Here's one who teaches:

    Attention all Cybernauts - we are now orbiting Planet Silly! Danger, Will Robinson!
  20. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Doesn't that kind of legality apply more to a school's proprietor than to the degrees the school awards? Operating legally according to some state law seems to me to just mean that the school's owner can't be prosecuted for running his/her school.

    Unless somebody is one of the more intolerant atheists, a degree in religion isn't likely to be a problem. The problem is schools operating under religious exemptions from state higher education licensing laws. Most of these religious-exempt schools are in my opinion academically worthless.

    (I can't think of any that are academically sound off the top of my head, but there may be a few.)

    But the fact remains that many exceedingly reputable schools offer degrees in religion.

    (I expect that "religious-exempt" what you meant by "religious degree", I'm just defending the honor of degrees in religion here.)

    Here in the United States, one typically doesn't need a degree in order to call one's self "doctor", except in some regulated professions like medicine which require not only a degree but a license to practice. So the cheapest and easiest option would seem to be lying. Smarter than sending thousands of dollars to some stranger so that he can tell you that it's ok to lie.

    Of course civil or criminal fraud considerations might come into play if somebody else pays me money or incurs other losses based on trusting my claims about my worthless/non-existent education. I'm not a lawyer but it's something to think about.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020

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