Masters Propio (ENEB, etc)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Jul 4, 2020.

  1. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    There is a difference, my propio degree was taken with the University and not a company. The transcript came from the University. The problem here is that WES is ignoring the certification an just taking the ENEB credits because Isabel does not issue the degree but ENEB. I have a certificate from the University and this was taken with the university and not with a company.

    I did not pay 199 either for my degree, it cost me few thousand dollars.

    You would need to find a propio degree that is willing to provide a transcript from the University and not just a certification. My suggestion would be to go with the university directly and avoid third party certified programs if the intention is to earn credits.

    The good news is that at least you have a non accredited MAsters. Non accredited Masters is not a degree mill and it is ethical to list in a CV. The problem here is that they cannot be used to teach at the University but not everyone wants to work at the University level.
  2. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    It is true that ENEB completes the issue for Isabel, although in that case it's only logistical because the document itself has Isabel's seal and its chancellor's signature. That's what I find interesting about the two publicly shown evaluations. While WES decided to ignore Isabel's document, ECE appears to have taken Isabel's doc into account and made a conclusion based on that (RA bachelor's), at least for that one evaluation we know about anyway.

    I've found that Isabel is certifying a lot more programs than just ENEB, most of them being business schools like ENEB or programs like the Formacion types, so it would probably be a nightmare for them if they were to issue the docs individually themselves. On the other hand, they do keep a verifiable electronic record of ECTS & hours for each graduate of their certified programs, of course there is always the possibility that the schools themselves are accessing that system and inputting that information.

    Formacion Alcala says that they have an arrangement where the Universities submit a doc and transcript themselves, and that surprised me a bit because Isabel is one of the schools they work with. Maybe some schools do it through their arrangement and some don't. Maybe Isabel does more for some programs than others. I read one conversation on Google reviews for Formacion Alcala where a student was complaining about how long it was taking to receive their degree and transcript, and FA responded saying that they were sorry for the delay but it was up to the University regarding timetables and delivery. When I chatted with FA they made me understand that the word "transcript" was foreign to them. They called it an "academic certificate" and the explanation was dead-on to what a transcript is. It costs $75 and comes from one of the parent Universities depending on the program you choose. The only issue with the Formacion schools is that their programs are entirely in Spanish, and while translations can help get around the language barriers, meanings do get lost in translation and can prove to be a hassle for many.
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    All these operations are risky. In my case, the same University approached me later and offered my an upgrade to an official degree for another 3K to get the official master just by submitting a thesis.

    I would suggest just getting the official degree. The work is the same and most of the time the difference is just a thesis at the end of the program.

    5K is not a fortune and I think it will save you a lot of headaches.

    Getting 199 Masters degrees carries a risk.
  4. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    FA charges about $800 USD give or take and depending on specials, so that's at least a hair over 4 times less risk, right? I'm kidding of course, lol, but if FA is able to get the Universities to submit their own docs and scripts to students with University insignia, they may be ahead of the field.
  5. Johann766

    Johann766 Member

    Would you mind telling us what other schools Uni Isabel is working with? Meaning certifying their programmes? I couldn´t find anything on Google maybe because it´s in Spanish language and I used google in English :D
  6. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I've seen:


    Formacion Alcala


    GES Training

    CEIJ (The Center for Legal Studies and Research)

    EICYC (International School of Criminalistics and Criminology


    There are more I just can't remember them all at the moment.

    What's interesting about ISEB is that their business programs are nearly identical to ENEB's (even their site has some design similarities) and I have seen other programs Isabel certifies that are the same way. This makes me think that Isabel either created this curriculum or has some kind of direct influence on how its developed. ISEB's programs are much more expensive though at nearly $14,000 USD, and I have yet to find them participating in any discount programs.

    Formacion Alcala's programs are all under $1,000 USD, often times way under, but they are entirely in Spanish. They have agreements with over 530 licensed training centers, clinics, and hospitals in Spain, so a person can take one of their programs and undergo the necessary in-person training. I have read reviews where people complained about having to wait a long time to get into a center, but those things happen. I also find it interesting that FA's master's programs have a thesis and publishing component and has parent Universities like San Jorge and UEMC issue their own transcripts and diplomas to students. So given the in-person training capability, and the thesis component, FA's program appears to be the most thorough of its kind and goes above and beyond what I thought a propio was supposed to be. Heck, are they even still propio degrees if they have all of that? It was my understanding that propio degrees don't have a thesis component. Hmmmm. I mean, I guess nothing is stopping them from having one.

    SAERA has in-person training hours for neuroscience, optometry, audiology, and speech therapy. They also have a thesis component as well. Their master's programs are about $4,200 USD.

    Many more accredited Universities in Spain participate in these low-cost propio/training programs besides Isabel. I've come to the conclusion that while Americans may have issues with this, in Spain this is common and accepted. The price disparity is not as large compared to what it would be in relation to U.S. schools either. Most accredited Spanish Universities don't charge a fortune for their degree programs as under $20,000 is something I've seen quite often and many under $10,000. The cheapest I've seen is about $6,000 total.
    Maxwell_Smart likes this.
  7. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    So it's come to this, smh. I'm not surprised. They were going to find some way to put a wall up and it didn't take them long. Maybe it's more like a chain-link fence, but still.

    I've had discussions with registrar's at a number of schools since this whole thing began showing up in the U.S. market, and a few of them said they will take the degrees without a foreign evaluation. One said that if WES evaluated it as an unaccredited master's and the GPA at least matched their requirement, that would be good enough for admission to their Doctoral program, and that would've worked fine because the recent WES evaluation we've seen came out with just that result. But if WES follows ECE's lead, now that avenue will be closed, too. Well, with WES anyway. There are other NACES evaluators but it's highly unlikely we'll ever see results from many more and certainly not all 12.

    I'm sure you're already aware, but for those who aren't, Isabel itself provides a system for verification, too. I don't know if the number ENEB provides is the same one on the Isabel diploma, but the Isabel degree verification system is here:

    And the result would look like:

    Universidad-Isabel-I Verification.png

    I like that and wish all schools did this. It would throw a wrench into the game of the non-degree holding liars claiming they have a degree from a school when they don't.

    There is also Nations University. They only charge per quarter. It used to be per year.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  8. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    A lot of schools now use to allow students to maintain virtual diplomas, share them on social media and with employers. I know both Duke (where @JoshD goes) and Quantic (where I go) issue them, and I know someone who was able to verify their GED the same way. It's not a transcript but it provides similar on-demand verification.
    JoshD and Maniac Craniac like this.
  9. asianphd

    asianphd Active Member

  10. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Thanks for sharing. The problem that I see is that the name of the Company is included in the diploma so evaluators will know that you took it with a business and not the school. The same University offers diplomas themselves so the less risky approach is to take it with the school directly.

    However, as Maxwell_smart stated, not all the schools require WES or ECE evaluations so you might use it to get into a PhD. There is also a need for American schools to recruit students so some would just be flexible and take it for admission into a PhD or DBA.

    In some countries, all they require is an apostille that is like a notary certification of the diploma. These schools provide apostille services that might be good enough for employment in the US.

    In general, they are a good enough for people that already are established in a field and just need extra training. Most employers would take them if they come from a real University. Many companies do their own evaluations.

    I think the main issue here if someone needs it for work permit purposes or immigration, then this propio diploma might not be enough.
  11. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    Yes, Parchment is very good. They've made electronic submission very easy. There is--as there should be--a cost for students and businesses though.

    What I like about Isabel's verification system is that it's free for anyone needing to verify. A person shows up claiming to have the credential, and all the verifier has to do is get the numbers, type them into the form, and they will know instantly that the program was completed by that person (or not, because some nut/phony will still fake everything and bank on nobody inputting the fake number they've concocted). Good for Jimmy Iovine that none of these systems existed when he was lying about his degree (a story I can no longer seem to find anywhere anymore for some reason).
  12. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    I'm starting to get old so maybe I'm going blind and just missing it, but can you point out what spot you're seeing Formacion Alcala mentioned? I see "Formacion Complementaria" but that just means "further training".
  13. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    Looks like a 'yes' on that because the diploma AsianPhD posted says "Titulo Propio".
  14. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    I had a feeling that was playing a role because some of those schools I know for a fact were way less flexible pre-COVID. A lot of schools are moving differently as a result of what's been happening. Big tuition discounts, bigger scholarships, more flexible payment plans. If a person can manage financially, it's a good time to earn new credentials.
  15. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    This is just a template, it says "Empresa Colaboradora" that means Collaborating company, here you would have the name of the company "formacion alcala" but this is just a general template.

    I think we are breaking our heads here. These are really just continuing education certificates but the confusion here is because they call them "masters". If I take a non credit certificate at X or Y university online, I get a non credit diploma but because here they use the word "master" to make it more attractive, the US market interpret then as a degree.

    In Spain many CVs that I have seen have 2 to 5 of these propio degrees so they are quite popular but every employer would know that they are not the same as an official masters that requires at least 90 ECTS and a master's thesis.

    However, they count for employment purposes as recognized training.
  16. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Breaking our heads, lol. I love this discussion, it's fascinating learning about this system.

    I have seen official master's degrees at 60 ECTS, may not be widespread but UAB does have them:

    I'm a little confused on the bold though. Both WES and ECE determined ENEB's programs to be degree programs. While ENEB is new to the U.S. market, propios and even the arrangement of one school teaching a program for a parent school and issuing propios in Spain aren't new things to WES or ECE. So why didn't WES or ECE determine long ago that these propios are not degrees?

    Here is something from ACEI about propios and officials:

    "... These titles are regarded as two different degrees by the Ministry of Education, Culture and Sports (Ministerio de Educación, Cultura y Deporte)/MEC of Spain..."

    But ACEI also said this:

    "... my advice is to recognize the studies for credit equivalence but not a U.S. Master’s degree. When evaluating these degrees, request the following from the student/candidate: proof of degree from previous studies to help establish the criteria on which the individual was admitted to the titulo propio program..."

    SpanTran has the same position. They recommend evaluating them for credit. The question I keep wondering about is, are they being evaluated as grad or undergrad credit?
  17. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    As an aside, UAB is charging prices that are so low it's hard to even believe. These foreign degree prices are just unreal. We're really living in two very different worlds when it comes to higher education in so many ways. Wow. I mean, UAB is charging tuition rates that are lower than Ashworth College and I didn't think that was even possible. They also teach programs in English so that could be an avenue for people not looking to spend a mortgage on a degree here in the United States (and who can blame them?).
    asianphd likes this.
  18. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I have one that was evaluated by a NACES recognized service as a 30 graduate credit diploma. It is mainly dressing on the resume, it helps just to get few adjunct gigs here and there but nothing more.
    Consulting firms normally look for MBAs from top schools and any online MBA from a non ranked school is not very useful. This as Masters in Supply Chain so it helps to complement my MBA but I don't think alone would be very useful.

    The market is very saturated with people with low profile credentials. I would only consider these programs if I had a Masters from a good school and just wanted continuing education in my resume.

    Some people might benefit from the credits if they wanted to use them to qualify for a license or certification. I was considering one of these propios degrees for Career counselling gigs but it is too risky as the local licenses are normally designed around local degrees so it is not very likely that they would accept an online propio degree from Spain.

    They are very convenient as they are fully online and based on multiple choice questions and small cases, they are also very affordable. However, one must be careful about expectation. As I said, they are really just continuing education.
  19. AsianStew

    AsianStew Active Member

    Most programs from Formacion Alcala are in Spanish, I've only seen a few that are 25% to 50% in English. If there is one that is 100% English, then it would be an easier option for people like to investigate and maybe even enroll in, especially since they have some in the Health field for example, it's hard to find a "Masters" with 1500 hours and ECTS applied to their propio degree, many of them are just 795 Euro, which is roughly a little less than a grand USD (~$968).
  20. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Oh, ok, so it was you that had the 30 credit grad diploma. I've seen that come up a bunch of times and wasn't sure who it was.

    I seem to recall you mentioning having an MBA from a well-regarded school so it sounds like you've already got that covered well.

    The MBA situation is a tough one. So many, if not most, schools offer it (and that's part of the problem) and yet only a few of them really make the impact students are hoping for. Granted, it's up to the degree holder to add their own value, but the right name makes a big difference even for the most mediocre, while an unknown name can cause stagnation, and a tarnished name can sink even the most talented and ambitious.

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