Masters Propio (ENEB, etc)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Jul 4, 2020.

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  1. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Two is "most"?

    Either way, that's not "common sense", that's a guess. Evaluators are notoriously individualistic, and drawing a trend line based on WES's judgment call about two outlying schools is entirely premature.
     
  2. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    WES has already stopped taking evaluations from both Azteca and UCN. Not sure about any others.
     
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    There are other similar in the black list but don;t want to give them bad press. I have a WES education account and can see them. Anyone interested in doing a foreign degree from a private outfit can open a WES account and see for themselves. I am just here to help, if anyone finds useful be it.
     
  4. innen_oda

    innen_oda Active Member

    I had forgotten about this 'degree' until I saw an advert for it online and was reminded of this amazing thread. Seems ENEB is really getting the word out.

    So the good news is that employers won't have to Google this degree anymore to find out what it is. They'll never know it was a Groupon degree!

    The bad news . . . well, you can probably figure that one out for yourself.
     
  5. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I've been wading through translations and reading quite a bit about what Spaniards think of ENEB, and it's mostly been very positive regarding the curriculum. I find it interesting that the attacks I read here aren't done in the discussions I read between Spaniards, that's not to say that there aren't apprehensions, but they're definitely not fixated on the whole Groupon thing and using it as a pejorative, in fact I've yet to see anyone there bring it up in any of the discussions I've read through.

    In Spain, they see it as an acceptable non-prestigious program that reduced its prices drastically to gain market share and visibility they never would've gotten had they continued in all regions with their regular price. I think everyone understands that this isn't a prestigious program, but neither are the majority of programs we discuss here.
     
  6. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    You mean Spaniards don't put 'degree' in ridiculous scare quotes? Who knew!
     
  7. Thorne

    Thorne Active Member

    They also don't walk around acting holier than thou just so they can compensate for their lack of prowess
     
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    This is just the beginning, I learned today about a service that can transform any private Masters into ECTS with schools from Latin American and Spain. The 200 dlls masters from ENEB is just the beginning of hundreds that will come from schools in Mexico, Colombia, Spain, etc.

    This is just the beginning, I was offered to transform few MAsters that I got for 100 dlls from a private school into Propio Masters from Mexico, Colombia, Argentina and Spain for 100 dlls. These are brand new schools and not Azteca or UCN.

    The cheap degree invasion from Latin America is coming here to stay, in the near future you will see hundreds of programs for less than 300 offered from many schools from Spain and Latin American.

    I won't disclose the service but you should see it soon in Groupon and other places.
     
  9. Thorne

    Thorne Active Member

    Interesting!

    You keep talking about these private school Masters and certificates and I like professional development, so it got me thinking: is the format often like ENEB's or are they different somehow? Also, where should I look for the degrees themselves (not the conversion side, I just want the programs + certificates that I can chuck in the "continuing ed" segment of my CV)
     
  10. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    It is like a bank of credits that can be used for official and propio degrees in Europe and Latin America. You take a Masters degree for 60 ECTS and bank them, then you can use them for an official degree that matches the credits.
    The same idea that Azteca and UCN that take credits from private companies but here you have an accreditation body that evaluates the quality of the company before credits can be transferred. The spanish site of this company below:

    https://dqcertificaciones.eu/

    They already a catalog of companies that are accredited to offer credits:

    https://agenciauniversitariadq.online/centros-de-formacion-acreditados/


    This makes degrees very cheap as companies do not have to hire tenure track faculty or people with PhDs, companies award the credits that then are banked with DQcertifications. The same accreditation agency can help you to transfer them with prestigious schools like the University of Navarra for a Masters degree.

    So as big name schools like University of Navarra with enter the game, this will make Isabel 1 obsolete as this last one is just an internet based University with no on campus programs.

    We are living a new era of education where companies teach the dgree and universities just grant the diploma, this makes it very cost effective.

    As these might end with official Masters degrees, I dont see how WES and similar can block them.

    This type of models will be the trend now, this brings the cost of the education to very cheap.
     
  11. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Looks like they've been beefing up to some face-to-face instruction:

    Its central building occupies an area of 4,000 square meters distributed over five floors and where the central services and physical classrooms of the University are housed. In addition, it has a modern R & D & I Building, of more than 2,000 square meters distributed over four floors, which houses the laboratories and equipment where the University's research activity and the students' face-to-face practices take place...

    And...:

    OUR HEADQUARTERS
    The Isabel I University has a campus in Burgos that houses the teaching and administrative services, the R + D + i Building and the classrooms for exams and practices; and an office in Valladolid.

    My concern is, while they may be accepted as official in the Spanish-speaking world they may not be in the English-speaking world, at least not in North America. I say that because on the site it shows example University certificates from a school offering an official master's, but it carries both the University's insignia and DQ's insignia. If that's how they are handling the degrees, that may pass without question in the Spanish world, but U.S. evaluators would quickly learn of the arrangement and could just automatically reject the diploma (or evaluate it as unaccredited/non-accredited) based on it having the DQ seal and not being directly taught by the parent university.

    EDIT: However, this might work if the parent school issues its own transcript. Otherwise, places like WES will just treat it like they treat other propio programs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  12. Dustin

    Dustin Active Member

    This is not rhetorical, I really don't know - is the reason nobody's mentioned Groupon in the discussions among Spaniards because it's not being sold on Groupon in Spanish? They could be advertising through conventional means to Spanish speakers and then specifically targeting English speakers through discounted Groupons and similar.
     
  13. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    https://www.groupon.es/browse/madrid?lat=40.417&lng=-3.7&query=ENEB&address=Madrid&division=madrid&locale=es_ES

    ENEB also uses a number of Spanish Groupon-like variants with similar low pricing. That never seems to be an issue during the discussions. They're likely just more used to it by now since these types of programs are not new to them like they are to us. I have read a few blogs where the debate was over how they can offer a program similar to another more prestigious school (the name escapes me right now, but it's known as an acronym for something) at a fraction of the cost.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
    Dustin likes this.
  14. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    This certificate is just a ECTS credit voucher that has an ID so you can enter it in their system. This is not the degree, the degree is handled by the university that matches your credits with a degree program. Credits are transferred and you might need to take more credits to complete the degree with the target university.

    By the way, never pay the retail price of a program that appears in a company web site. Just register, once they notice your interest they will start sending you vouchers and 24 hrs deals. Normally you pay half or less than half than the retail price.

    You can also ask for a certificate of studies for a particular university just with credits.

    As for WES and others taking these degrees, this is always at their discretion so the is no guarantee that they will take the degrees even if they come from an official school.

    By the way, the Isabel 1 degree is not really a degree but just a certificate. If you read it, it is just certifying a degree from a company. The DQ certificate is the same but it adds two universities and their own seal so technically is the same thing as they just certifying with credits the private learning.

    The bottom line is that official universities normally offer degrees that have been approved by the government, they will not match 100% an offering from a company so the certificates are just saying that they are relevant but cannot be real degrees. This new effort just tries to help you to transfer the credits but if you want an official degree, you would still need to submit thesis and extra course work to complete but reduce cost and work due to the already completed credits.
     
  15. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I read a document that was posted by Spain's government that identifies DQ, but is there something more official? Some kind of official government recognition posted somewhere? I ask because I imagine without that it may be difficult to get any traction outside of the few schools that are participating.

    Ah, gotcha. So then, this certificate would not have any value outside of using it to transfer to a University that would accept it and the credits it carries as a voucher into an official program?

    I've known of this being used for immigration purposes. Is there any other use for it in the United States?

    I have seen Spanish sites and schools have the words "certificate" or "degree certificate" used interchangeably with both referring to college degrees. I've also seen from France Bachelor's degrees referred to as "diplomas" which the piece of paper technically is, but in this part of the world we normally would refer to the title as a degree.

    I don't think there is any confusion about Isabel certifying the studies taught by ENEB. What's interesting is that the ENEB diploma carries sort of similar language. So I take it as a matter of vernacular rather than a difference in study levels. WES and ECE appear to both take it that way as well since both deemed them to be degrees in their evaluations.
     
  16. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I read the information again and basically DQ acts an intermediate for credit transfer with a University. They have two (Mexican and Argentinian) that are their main partners but they also work with many other universities.

    They state that they can issue a "propio" degree from a particular university if this is what you want but the two main partners are for official degrees.

    Most evaluation services just check that the university is official and the degree is within the official framework. Some just check universities so for this reason propio degrees can pass as official as in the US accredited universities can issue any degree. In Mexico, Spain and Argentina, degrees are official not Universities.


    ECE only takes Isabel 1 for credits, they just need the digital copy as it has an encrypted code with the credits. You would still need to transfer them to places like Excelsior but because these credits are for a specific program, you would need to use them for either electives or for general degrees like Liberal Studies degrees. ECE will not grant you a masters equivalency based on your ENEB Isabel 1 degree.

    But again, not everyone needs ECE or WES reports. There are also many not NACES recognized services that most likely would give you an equivalency and these might be good enough for employment purposes, ECE and WES are mainly for University recognition, licensing or immigration but for employment besides academics many services can do and might take Isabel 1 or any other propio degree as US equivalent.
     
  17. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    So say a person finished the master's program there and then went to ECE and got it evaluated as a regionally accredited bachelor's degree like Dee12 did over on the other forum. Excelsior wouldn't accept that for entry into a master's program? I was under the impression that it would be possible because at the ECE site's special section for Excelsior it lists "U.S. equivalence for each educational credential" under its subject analysis section:

    https://www.ece.org/ECE/Individuals/Education-Reports/Excelsior-Colleges-

    And this report example: https://www.ece.org/ECE-FIles/Sample-Reports/Sample_SA_Category_Report.pdf
     
  18. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I have contacted ECE myself and have agreed to evaluate propio degrees for credit. Propio degrees are not official so it is unlikely that they will give you a degree equivalency, WES doesn't so ECE most likely will follow the same rule.
    The link you sent me is what Excelsior needs for credit transfer, you can get it with a propio degree just that it will not show the degree. Maybe propio degrees were evaluated as RA degrees in the past due to lack of awareness of the difference but it seems that now evaluation services are very well aware of them.

    The challenge for the evaluation is that they want to see the diploma (original) or digital copy with bar code for authentication. Most propio degrees do not provide transcripts from the University but from the company so the evaluation can be problematic. ENEB provides you with a bar code for authentication so this is fine.

    Free degrees or almost free exist in France, Spain, Colombia, Mexico, etc but you would need to go and speak the language for registration, most of these schools are not set for total online interaction. In the English world, the only free schools that I know are the University of the People or Quantic Business School.

    I think you cannot have it all, you cannot have Free, English, online, prestigious, etc. Most of these online propio degrees are meant as icing on the cake or continuing education, a first degee from a traditional bricks and mortar school is normally expected on top of these degrees.
     
  19. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Agreed. Even University of the People isn't free. They have fees to apply and to sit exams, amounting to $4,860 for a Bachelor's degree. Still very inexpensive by U.S. standards, though.
     
  20. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    That is something. I'm never able to get a straight answer from them on anything, lol. I must be getting the wrong people. ECE's chat staff has been unbearable for me, not on purpose, it's just the guidelines they have in place for what they can discuss without a formal evaluation. WES is equally not very helpful except for their pre-evaluation tool, but the rest of the NACES evaluators were able to give me very detailed and specific information.

    Understood. I was basing my question off of the two most known evaluations we have which weren't too long ago. The WES one was posted just a month ago from Dumber on the other board:

    Country: Spain
    Credential: Titulo de Master
    Awarded by: ENEB
    Status: Non-accredited program
    U.S equivalency: Master’s degree from a non-accredited institution


    Then a page or two later he wrote what looks like a summary of a course-by-course evaluation:

    WES:

    Total non-accredited post-secondary semester credits: 36 GPA:4
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WES evaluated all courses in my degree.


    Looks like he paid for the deluxe evaluation package :)

    What you're reporting about ECE only evaluating propio degrees for credit must be a very recent development. Thanks for sharing that, very good information.

    Well, if the evaluators remain fair and at least give it the credit it's worth then it's fine in my eyes, but some of what I've read from them has made me skeptical of how they'll go about it. ECE already came up with a highly questionable way of turning it into an RA bachelor's instead of a master's (and now I'm thinking it may have been a temporary measure before finally deciding on their newest policy).

    WES evaluated it as a non-accredited U.S. master's degree which left a verrrrrrrrrrry tiny crack open for someone to find an American Doctoral program that would accept it, but if they're going to only evaluate propio degrees for credit like SpanTran, then that door is now slammed shut. All of that being said, if the programs from the countries propios originate from don't allow Doctoral entry, it shouldn't comes as a surprise to anyone that another country's evaluators would eventually find a way to follow suit even if the reasoning being used to do it is suspect. After all, Americans would just escape its ridiculous high tuition prices, get propios, and transfer back in to drastically reduce their tuition costs, cutting a huge chunk of revenue out of the American higher education market (which quite frankly deserves at this point to lose that chunk, but I digress) and I can't see evaluators wanting to facilitate that. They would be heroes, but they would also destroy their relations with American educational institutions and at some point the institutions might just do foreign evaluations themselves entirely (and mostly if not altogether unfavorably to propios) to defend against it.

    Now the big question is, will they at least still evaluate the credits as Masters level like WES did in the above result? If not, I'm calling bull on them, lol.
     

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