Masters Propio (ENEB, etc)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Jul 4, 2020.

  1. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Agreed. The University of Pennsylvania and Vanderbilt University both had doctoral programs that interested me, but the price tag... nope, the ROI just wasn't there.
  2. AsianStew

    AsianStew Moderator Staff Member

    novadar, just wondering what the evaluations came in as for your foreign degree? Was your degree also a Spanish Titulo Propio? I was also curious if you received the degree directly from the university or from a partnership with an education provider - similar to ENEB & University Isabel I?
  3. novadar

    novadar Member

    It was directly from the university, not a Spanish Titulo Propio, and not via a partnership.
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I wonder what the ROE would have been?

    John Bear's wife, Marina, did her PhD at Vanderbilt. I doubt seriously she's seen an ROI that justified it. But I doubt seriously (and I know her) she ever regretted doing it.
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Not sure, but either one would have been six figures.
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Found this evaluation of propio vs mainstream degrees here:

    Google will translate for you if you no habla. I think it is significant that they say: propios are valid in Spain, as they are legally taught and conferred under the laws governing Universities. It also covers the bit about their not being useful for Government job applications or further study at Universities. It makes no mention of validity of propios outside Spain, but says "Official" - i.e. mainstream Spanish degrees are valid in 47 European Countries under an agreement. (Wow! that's more countries than Europe had when I was a kid, I'm pretty sure. A lot has happened in 70 years...) Pretty well all this stuff we already know, but it's nice to see it from an official source.

    Below, you'll find a link (in English) to the IMEP site this info came from - who they are. etc. I note they're located in Alicante. Nice place for a holiday - and I'm pretty sure in days gone by, I drank really decent wine from there. Yes, looks like I did. Caution: Second link may make you thirsty. :)
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
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  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I wonder what agreement that is? There are exactly 47 countries in Europe (including Russia and Turkey). What agreement exists where all 47 are signatories?
  8. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Another thing. If you want to see sources of propio degrees you might have overlooked, simply Google either "propio degrees" or "titulos propios" and hit the "images button" right after the search results come up. You'll be confronted with hundreds of pictures of propio diplomas - and you can make a record of the university names and look 'em up. So many you could spend all night...
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    It's mentioned on the IMEP page I linked to, under item 3 - Homologacion. The org. that engineered it is EEES - Espacio Europeo de Educacion Superior. Their site is here:
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    What the site says (translated) is that "Official" degrees have homologation in the 47 countries that are members of the EEES. I presumed that if they had this, there must be an agreement. Don't send me for decapitation if I can't produce a copy or tell you the date it was signed. A reprimand from the Holy Temple of Reproof will suffice - and maybe "a light beating" as the Qur'an prescribes -- no, that was for wives...
  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Hmmm - here's another Spanish site (in English) that says something different about those 47 countries and homologation (which is "equivalence" - said by some authorities to be an outmoded approach) : "State universities are part of the European Higher Education Area (EHEA) which currently includes 47 countries and offers multiple bachelor’s degrees (the first cycle of official university education), master’s degrees and postgraduate degrees which can be homologated or convalidated in various countries."

    Above is from here: Doesn't say all degrees or all 47 countries. Just mentions there are 47 countries in the EHEA and that multiple degrees can be homologated in various countries - nothing about all degrees OR in all 47. Oh, what the heck. Go ahead. Call the "Lord High Executioner" (Levicoff) if you like... :eek::eek:

    I gets what I gets. I pays my money and takes my choice. Looks like the EEES is EHEA in English.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  12. innen_oda

    innen_oda Active Member

    I think the real key here is in what 'recognise' means, assuming the translation into English is accurate. ('Official degrees are recognized in the 47 member countries of the European Higher Education Area (EHEA) .')
    Is recognise taken to mean 'yes, this is equivalent to a master degree in "x-country" and we will accept it as such when evaluating for employment and/or study' or is it 'yes, if it's on your resume, we won't ignore it, but will accept it however we choose to translate it within our own national tertiary regime, but that might mean we "recognise it" as a professional certificate'.

    Something about the vague 'they will recognise it' makes me a bit wary. A bit of research is not terribly reassuring on this point:
    'There is no automatic EU-wide recognition of academic diplomas. You may therefore need to go through a national procedure to get your academic degree or diploma recognised in another EU country, if you seek admission to a further course of study there. If you already know that you will eventually want to pursue further studies in a different country, check before you start whether your diploma will be recognised there.

    Individual governments of EU countries remain responsible for their education systems and are free to apply their own rules, including whether or not to recognise academic qualifications obtained elsewhere.'
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  13. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Thanks, innen_oda. You obviously know your stuff! One very minor quibble, though. In the web-pages I read, nobody said simply "recognize." The word used was very specific - homologation - (homologacion in Spanish) also known in some circles as "nostrification" which is a fancy Latin-derived word meaning exactly the same thing: "making it ours," meaning that the receiving country will declare "their" (other country's degree) equivalent to a specific degree of the receiving country's own. That's the specific kind of recognition talked about throughout. I probably shouldn't have said simply "The degrees are valid in 47 countries," even though that's the result of homologation. The same word, "homologation" was used on English-language sites I looked at.

    Same basic procedure US evaluators use - they tell you what your foreign credential is worth in terms of US degrees. And it seems logical that European countries would all have their own rules - at least eight of them have their own NARIC* agencies - and they have a history of making their own rules. For instance UK-NARIC simply refuses to evaluate US Nationally Accredited degrees. Only Regionally Accredited will do. And doubtless, now that USDE has termed ALL recognized accreditors 'National," I don't expect any change in policy at UK-NARIC. They'll simply cherry-pick and only evaluate US degrees from schools accredited by the old short list of Regional Accreditors.

    Thanks again!

    * NARIC - NARIC: National Academic Recognition Information Centres in the European Union (Credential evaluators) - I think there are at least eight of them in the EU.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  15. innen_oda

    innen_oda Active Member

    Agreed - which is why I specifically referenced 'assuming the translation is accurate'. - item 3.

    I've tried the same thing in a few other languages I'm familiar with (since my Spanish is limited to things like 'the cat drinks milk'). Interesting:
    A hivatalos diplomákat az Európai Felsőoktatási Térség (EHEA) 47 tagországa elismeri. - 'elismeri' here is akin to concede or accepted. It's kind of begrudging and not really positive in connotation, to my mind.
    Officielle grader godkendes i de 47 medlemslande i Det Europæiske Område for Videregående Uddannelse (EHEA). - godkend is like accepted.
    Offizielle Abschlüsse werden in den 47 Mitgliedsländern des Europäischen Hochschulraums (EHR) anerkannt - I had to cheat and look up anerkannt in my dictionary (why not something logical like gutkennt like the Danes?), but it's accepted or recognised.
    Официјалните дипломи се признаваат во 47-те земји-членки на Европската област за високо образование (EHEA). признава I've only ever seen as like 'okay, I admit I didn't know', but my grasp of Macedonian is pretty rudimentary. So 'consider/agree/admit', would be how I would read it.

    Point is, none of these translations are exactly resounding positives, and to my mind they're all in the vein of 'we won't immediately discount this diploma', which is kind of like how politicians answer awkward questions they'd really prefer to avoid. If I was to take on this degree/fancy bit of paper, I would want something more than a pollie's promise.
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  16. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I think the focus here has been about how these credentials translate to the U.S. system. Unless a person living in the U.S. is planning to live in Europe, I think a U.S. evaluation returning a positive result is all that's needed. It doesn't make sense to start worrying about all the scenarios each country is going present when you won't be living in those places.
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  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Good job! My Macedonian is limited to .... nil. "Anerkannt" in German has always seemed OK to me. If I take it apart I get the sense of "looked upon (an-) as known" - i.e. recognized. The verb "erkennen," means 'to recognize," or in some cases "detect." "Kennen, by itself is simply "to know."Oh yes - you said you looked it up. Sorry. I don't know Danish, but I do know some of its Germanic roots through modern German and also Old English (Anglo Saxon) and 'godkend' I take to mean either (or possibly both) 'well-known' or something like a phrase I often use about good foreign schools "known (to be) good."

    We should remember throughout. All this multilingual verbiage refers to Official Degrees - NOT Propios, which are the subject of this thread. Best we can say about them: YMMV (Your mileage may vary.)

    PS - I don't know Macedonian, but I can read their Cyrillic script and understand a little, as I know something of another Slavic language- and I note they also specified "Official diplomas" - like everyone else.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  18. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    That was why I went on about the 47 countries. My points were:

    None of those countries is US
    Official degrees only. Even the Euro recognition (universal or otherwise) doesn't extend to propios.
    Yes - US evaluator is the ultimate authority for Americans. I was too long and round-about (circumlocutious?) in saying all this. You may send in the Lord High Executioner now...
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    No, no. General claims can be supported with general evidence. I wasn't questioning its existence, just pondering the idea that anyone got every country in Europe to agree about anything.
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  20. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    And I see, innen-oda, that you're familiar with Hungarian. Congratulations. Hungarian-Finnish-Estonian (Finno-Ugric group) Albanian (Indo-European group) and Turkish are European languages completely beyond my ken. (There we go again - 'ken,' an archaic English word for "knowledge" - same origin as German "Kennen, erkennen etc.")

    I'm pretty shaky on all the others too...

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