Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited university!

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Actually, one state, New York. And that isn't available anymore.

Wes, you were once enrolled at Northcentral U., IIRC. Are you now enrolled in a California-approved school? This would be very relevant to the discussion because much of what you offer is opinion. You're entitled to share that, of course, but it would be helpful to know if you are speaking from one side of the issue or another.

Rich Douglas, who, for the record, was very clear about his involvement-and disinvolvement with MIGS, and who is also very clear about his re-enrollment at The Union Institute and University. (Quick, somebody change that name! )

 

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It appears there are several others.

I was told by a CA BPPVE that the BPPVE is a shoe-in for National Recognition but doesn't pursue this matter for political reasons. It was explained to me that as "Can you imagine the uproar that would take place in CA higher education community if the BPPVE did obtain national recognition. This would validate all of the CA Appproved schools and would in effect produce EXTREME competition for students in an already demishing market."

Here's the list of states with an approval system.

State Agencies Recognized for the Approval of
Public Postsecondary Vocational Education

The following State agencies have been recognized by the U.S. Secretary of Education as reliable authorities as to the quality of public postsecondary vocational education in their respective States. The dates included with each entry are the date of the agency's initial recognition, the date of its last renewal of recognition, and the date of its next scheduled review.

Kansas Board of Regents
1975/1998/2002

Joe Birmingham
Deputy Executive Director
700 S.W. Harrison, Suite 1410
Topeka, Kansas 66603-3760
Tel. (785) 296-2210, Fax (785) 296-0983
E-mail address: [email protected]
Web address: www.kansasregents.org

Missouri State Board of Education
1974/1999/2003

Robert E. Bartman
Commissioner of Education Department of Elementary and Secondary Education
Post Office Box 480
Jefferson City, Missouri 65102-0480
Tel. (573) 751-4212, Fax (573) 751-1179
Web address: www.dese.state.mo.us

New York State Board of Regents(Public Postsecondary Vocational Education)
1974/1998/2002

Richard Mills
Commissioner of Education
New York State Board of Regents
(Public Postsecondary Vocational Education Unit)
State Education Department
Albany, New York 12234
Tel.(518) 474-5844, Fax (518) 473-4909
Web address: www.nysed.gov

Oklahoma Board of Career and Technology Education
1976/1998/2002
Scope of recognition: the approval of public postsecondary vocational education offered at institutions in the State of Oklahoma that are not under the jurisdiction of the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education.

Ann Benson
State Director
1500 West Seventh Avenue
Stillwater, Oklahoma 74074-4364
Tel. (405) 377-2000, Fax(405) 743-5541
Web address: www.okcareertech.org

Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education
1976/2000/2004
Scope of recognition: the approval of public postsecondary vocational education in the state of Oklahoma for which credit earned is applied toward a degree, diploma, or other postsecondary academic or collegiate award given at State institutions comprising the Oklahoma State System of Higher Education.

Hans Brisch
Chancellor
Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education
P.O. Box 108850
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73101-8850
Tel. (405) 524-9120, Fax(405) 524-9235
E-mail address: [email protected]
Web address: www.okhighered.org

Puerto Rico Human Resources and Occupational Development Council
1983/2000/2004

Professor Victor Fajardo
Secretary of Education
Human Resources and Occupational Development Council
Puerto Rico State Department of Education
Post Office Box 190759
San Juan, Puerto Rico 00919-0759
Tel: (787)763-2171, Fax (787) 250-0275
E-mail address: [email protected]

Utah State Board for Applied Technology Education
1976/1998/2002

Steven O. Laing
State Superintendent of Public Instruction
Utah State Office of Education
250 East 500 South
Salt Lake City, Utah 84111
Tel. (801) 538-7510, Fax (801) 538-7768
E-mail address: [email protected]



Regards, Wes

 

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I don't think so.

And I was told that Sus scrofa domesticus aviate.

Wait a minute. Public Postsecondary Vocational Education? Where did you dig up that description? You are aware, of course, that the CA BPPVE stands for the Bureau for Private Postsecondary Vocational Education, right? I just want to make sure you were being clear. Moreover, when you cut and paste an entire Web site, you should, at least (although it is preferable to supply the actual link), acknowledge your source. I am beginning to see why you are considering pursuing a doctorate at an unaccredited school.

The link to the Department of Education Web site listing the State agencies recognized as authorities as to the quality vocational education in their respective States is http://www.ed.gov/offices/OPE/accreditation/statevocedlist.html . But isn’t it interesting that the CA BPPVE isn’t on the list?

I believe you are purposefully being misleading, and muddying the waters with public Elementary, Secondary, Technical and Vocational Education. However, to what end, I don’t know; it does not suit your purposes. Surely you cannot be equating the degree offerings of CA approved schools (Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorates) to that of Vocational, Elementary and High School Education in Missouri and elsewhere. Or are you?

You were supposedly providing a list of other States that provided a similar approval process to that of the CA BPPVE, as it related to post secondary degrees (Associates, Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorates). Nobody questions the consumer protection role played by the BPPVE in overseeing vocational and technical schools offering instruction in truck driving, bartending and casino dealing. What is in question, however, is your assertion that when this oversight is extended to private institutions of higher learning, it is equivalent to regional accreditation.

Moreover, it is interesting to note that, of the Web sites you provided that listed degree granting colleges and universities, all the schools have regional accreditation, even the private ones. So, no, none of the organizations you have provided, exercise an approval process of private institutions akin to the CA BPPVE.

But don’t get discouraged; it is way too early in the process of acquiring your Psy.D. at California Coast University to give up on your (unstated) mission to defend your choice of an unaccredited doctoral degree program by whatever means necessary. Remember, you can only get better at it, which is good, considering that you will have to do it the rest of your life.

 

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Mr. Gus, the difference between you and I is that you know what you're talking about. You must do this for a living. I have never met anyone even those on this NG (with the exception of Rich) that are as well informed as you, who don't do it for a living.

Now, back to my original point. I am not trying to skirt any issue or talk out of both sides of my mouth. It's clear that you have corrected me on many issues. That being said, my point is that employers really don't care about accreditation, per se. Otherwise unaccredited schools would go out of business. Yes, some employers aren't informed and others just want to know that the degree being accepted was earned not purchased.

The survery I have referenced on several occasions took place and the federal government did pay for the portion addressing the utility of an accredited degree earned via DL. I did not submit an invoice for time spent discussing the acceptance of an unaccredited but state approved degree.

Try a survey of our own. Find the decision-maker in any organization and ask them if they care whether a State or a professional association conducts the QA process of an educational institution. To MOST people accreditation, in my opinion is a non-issue, they just want to be assured that the degree was earned by way of real learning. Acceptance in the higher education community is zero.

I think I have made my point, employers will accept an earned unaccredited degree, when educated about the QA process, like it or not. I am aware however that arguing this point on this forum is like telling a group of republicians that Bill Clinton was a great President.

I must return to my work duties.

Gus, continue doing what you do as you do it well.

Wes Cox, who has three RA degrees, two of which are masters degrees, and who might decide to complete a CA Approved doctorate degree, like it or NOT!

University of Florida 1987
University of Tennessee, Knoxville 1989
University of Tennessee, Knoxville 1992

 

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Wes

If you believe that Clinton was a great President I understand why you believe an unaccredited degree is as useful as an accredited one. Seriously, what is clear is that is your opinion. It has already been demonstrated that a DETC degree is not as widely accepted as a RA degree and clearly an unaccredited one is less useful/respected/ accepted. If it meets your needs great. It definately seems like a less useful choice than a RA/GAAP school.

 

Indeed they do: the proof

 

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According to Bear, the USDOE will not recognize any other states' approval systems as recognized accreditors. The BPPVE cannot be approved, regardless of what you were told. Also, the BPPVE does a considerably inferior job of approval than it used to, if nothing else because of resources and for whom they work. The old system approved a few dozen programs, at most. Now it is tasked with approving thousands of schools. And it no longer is an educational bureaucracy; it is now working under the Department of Consumer Affairs. Even they have conceded publicly that they cannot perform a function akin to accreditation.

If state approval is comparable to accreditation, why is it that Bear's study showed such a dismal acceptance of it among accredited schools? Those schools accept foreign equivalents, why wouldn't they accept domestic equivalents? Because California-approved unaccredited schools are not equivalent.

The list you gave is nothing more than a list of some state agencies that perform an approval process. Only one has been recognized as an accreditor by the USDOE: New York.

The statement from your unknown source (it isnt' even clear if that person is part of the BPPVE) says that it is competition that keeps them from being recognized. Bull. That hasn't stopped a number of other accrediting agencies from being recognized in the dozen or so years since California changed its approval process. California can't be recognized because A) it doesn't perform a process that even approaches accreditation, and B) the USDOE will not recognize any other states.

California approval is not comparable to accreditation, nor does anyone (including state colleges and universities in California, BTW) equate it with accreditation, including the BPPVE. Those two facts have not changed, despite the desire of some to depict them differently.

Rich Douglas, who's been studying this issue for 24 years.

 

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Hey Wes,

I'm not going to trash you for enrolling in a CA-approved school. I'm fond of some of them myself and may end up doing the same thing.

But I think that you are losing people when you argue that CA-approval would be accepted as being the same as RA, apart from ignorance and prejudice. I live right here in California and even I don't think that.

So while I think that good arguments can be made for selected programs, at least for some limited purposes, I think that over-exaggerating claims makes them harder for people to believe.

BTW... If this thread continues forever, will there be an endless string of "re's" up at the top? Cool!

 

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I doubt seriously too many people care where you, I, or someone else goes to school, except when it is a school relevant to the discussion thread. Other than that, I'm sure I will find much support when I say I wish you well in your CCU program (if you do it) and hope it works out for you. But hopin' ain't makin' it so.

Rich Douglas

 

Wes,

I recall that you previously indicated that you were attending Northcentral University and noted that you were satisfied with the curriculum.

Were there any particular issues regarding the school that resulted in your decision to leave?

Thanks

 

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Wes, Maven, and Simon are the best things to have ever happened to this forum. Thank God for original and creative thinkers

 

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I never said Bill Clinton was a great President. It's a rare occasion that I express my political opinion and I certainly haven't on this NG at ANY time!!!!!!!

Because RA institutions don't accept DETC accredited degrees does not mean that DETC institutions provide an inferior education. Please remember the RA's are private organizations with an agenda of their own and one to protect. To accept DETC credits would validate DETC which inturn would create greater competition. This is why I believe the federal government should take over the role of QA like all the other countries and end this argument all together. And for that matter put all the degree mills out-of-business.

Regards, Wes

 

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You're correct, I was enrolled at NCU.

I maintain my opinion that NCU is a very good university!

The NCU system did not meet my educational needs in terms of methods and format for course delivery. I was quite upset when finally admitted this to myself. You see, my NCU courses required multiple assignments which in turn created deadlines. Psychopathology had like 18 assignements all with deadlines. If I didn't have two very young boys (ages 15 months and 3 years) plus a very thriving disability management practice I would have performed well in this system. But I just kept getting behind due to other more important priorities -- keeping my family income flowing and spending quality time with my sons.

I would tell anyone to enroll at NCU.

I am considering CalCoast because of the open-ended format.

Capella is and always has been my first choice but I can't justify spending 30K plus with two young sons.

Regards, Wes

 

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Rich, for some reason I respect your opinion more than any of the other members, including Bear.

I won't argue the point anymore because for the most part it is a matter of opinion and opinions are like as.holes, we all have one and most STINK!

When I say I have to get back to work I mean just that. I'm not running from any issue. Yesterday I lost at least two hours to this NG because of my inability to refrain.

BTW, I will NEVER recommend an unaccredited bachelors program to anyone for any reasons. I know that utility and portability if you will is essential to education. Furthermore, it will be a rare occasion for me to recommend an unaccredited masters degree. Doctorates pursued for professional (business) purposes not teaching/research serve most very well, especially those of us who are self-employed. I'll expand later. Got to finish my yardwork.

Regards, Wes

 

Thanks for the response Wes. Initially I reviewed the doctoral programs in Psychology at CCU and SCUPS but due to the fact that they did not meet the licensing requirements for the vast majority of states as well as the regional accreditation requirement based on the standards of the APA and ACA, they would not allow me to refer to myself as "doctor" (outside of California).

I understand your predicament in regards to Capella, famly and financial responsibilities. However, Capella offers a self-directed doctoral program in Professional Counseling that allows one to develop their own courses without the need to deal with multiple assignments as at NCU. I know of several folks who were able to complete the doctorate within two years.

best of luck,

Simon

 

Thanks for the response Wes. Initially I reviewed the doctoral programs in Psychology at CCU and SCUPS but due to the fact that they did not meet the licensing requirements for the vast majority of states as well as the regional accreditation requirement based on the standards of the APA and ACA, they would not allow me to refer to myself as "doctor" (outside of California).

I understand your predicament in regards to Capella, famly and financial responsibilities. However, Capella offers a self-directed doctoral program in Professional Counseling that allows one to develop their own courses without the need to deal with multiple assignments as at NCU. I know of several folks who were able to complete the doctorate within two years.

best of luck,

Simon

 

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The cost of Capella is the biggest draw-back for me. I would love to develop my own doctoral degree. Even if I could justify the average cost (30K) because Capella charges per quarter versus per credit hour it could end up costing me 60K -- due to family and professional related delays. My wife really does'nt want me matriculating at this time but rather wants me to wait another six to seven years -- until my boys are age seven and ten. So for the next couple years I can work with CalCoast on a time permitting basis, learn new (professionally relevant material) and upon completion gain a CA approved degree. BTW, I am extremely confident that a CA approved doctorate will meet all my professional needs. I don't intend to teach until much later in life (I'm only 38 and don't desire teaching until say 55) so as I see it I'll get a CA approved doctorate for doing 16 courses and later in life I'll write a dissertation with UNISA and gain D.Ed. This forum has really stimulated an interest in completing a dissertation on the American accreditation system versus the government controled method used by most other courtries.

Well I close for now.

Being that I've come to the Brentwood library to type professional reports on my laptop (you see, the wife and the boys are at home and thus a distraction) I'd better do just that.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Regards, Wes

 

Please excuse me for resurrecting this old thread, however when I came upon it I was captured by its title and this reply by Dave in particular.

You see as a late comer to finally getting my "formal" education I am also limited in funds but would like to continue my pursuit, even if it is via an un-accredited school.

I have tormented as to either come to a complete stand still with my M.S. or to continue onward on a path to a PhD or PsyD with an affordable and legal yet unaccredited school while facing ridicule from a host of other forum members. That was until I read Dave's attached post and a light bulb went on leading me to believe that I should do it for me regardless of what others think, but I still wish to have their respect for doing so any way.

So, let me ask, one and all like the original post said a couple of years ago - I'm looking for an affordable, legal, and if it's OK to be un-accredited PhD or PsyD in Psychology of course.

Can anyone help me out?

Thanks for your patience, support, and suggestions in advance!

 

SCUPS. Good luck.

 

Did'nt SCUPS change its name to California Southern University?
http://www.calsouthern.edu/