Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited university!

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by pbocij, Mar 7, 2002.

  1. simon

    simon New Member

    Tom: This is, incidentally, why I haven't yet mentioned which Aussie school I'm dealing with on this board--how do I know some twit like Simon won't harass my supervisor?)

    Response: And that is why I maintain my anonymity on this board!
    Not because of "twits like Simon" but due to certain posters who may became very angr and escalate the situation beyond the pages of this chatroom.
  2. DWCox

    DWCox member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited university!


    You're right it is a B.A. in Human Resource Leadership.

    Discrimination exists against DL, whether the degree is accredited or not. The OWCP did not want to pay for a degree program that might have limited utility. I proved otherwise but the OWCP still wanted some residential coursework even though it was'nt necessary.

    No, your tax dollars did not pay for any part of the survey focused on the accreditation issue.

    At no point, was the CA BPPVE ever even mentioned. The issue was presented something very similar to, You've stated that [your] company/orgainization requires that all college degrees be awarded by an institution with USDoE recognized accreditation. If you were aware that a State did not require accreditation but instead had a bureau dedicated to providing the same QA measure(s) to institutions of higher education would you accept a degree from one of these institutions? Remember, technically the institutions in question are not accredited. The answer everytime was "yes."

    Glad to make you aware of Sullivan University. Are you aware that Sullivan is part of Kentucky Virtual University?

    Are you aware of the TN Board of Regents online degree programs? If not you might want to add these programs to your website.

    Good Luck, Wes
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2002
  3. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    If it's done in a vague, colloquial way to a non-client while the counselor is off-duty, it's not a professional evaluation, diagnotic service, or intervention.

    ...and that if they don't, an anonymous troll has copies of their professional ethical guidelines.

    No; you were vindictive to his face, anonymously.

    This isn't a chatroom.

    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2002
  4. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited university!

    First, another miniscule technicality: the Sullivan University degree is not a BA, but a BS in Human Resource Leadership. And yes, I am now aware of the TN Board of Regents programs (but only after looking up Austin Peay State University ;) ) Thanks.

    Wes, perhaps I misunderstood you, but in a previous post you stated, ”I have found that educating the employer regarding the CA Approval process (referring the employer to the BPPVE website) has resulted in 100% acceptance of the CA Approved degree. Granted my research was a small sample (not randomly drawn) of 28 employers in North Central Tennessee and South Central Kentucky. BTW, I was assigned this task (contracted) by the US Dept of Labor.” and ”Since I and my client had to personally conduct this research I decided this would be a good opportunity to determine if these employers required an accredited degree versus just discussing the distance model. Those that do require an accredited degree agreed that the CA Approval met this requirement since all they [the employers] really wanted was to be assured that the degree was earned by way of real study versus a purchased diploma, if you will.”

    I hope you can see that it is certainly understandable, from your statements, how someone could get the impression that you educated the 28 employers involved in the USDOL funded research regarding the CA Approval process by referring them to the BPPVE web site, and that these same employers were asked if a CA approved school met their requirements. But if this wasn’t the case, how did you reach your conclusion that CA approved degrees receive 100% acceptance?

    Once again, I may have misunderstood, but it appears as if you were attempting to bolster your argument that, ”A CA Approved degree will ALMOST ALWAYS meet employment needs.’ by suggesting that a degree issued by a CA approved school would be universally (100%) accepted by employers (even those requiring accredited degrees), and that this statistic was backed by research (albeit with an admittedly extremely small sample). And if not your research, on what do you base that assertion?

    Where I disagree with you wholeheartedly, however, is when you come to the conclusion (I thought it was as a result of your research, but now I don’t what it is based on) that, ”In theory CA Approved programs are accredited in that a QA process applies to the CA Approved institution.” The issue of accreditation is one of minimum standards of quality assurance (which in the United States is regional accreditation), not one of simply any old QA will do. If what you are implying were true, then the so-called accreditation by bogus accreditors, whose only QA process is making sure the institution has enough funds so that the check for their membership clears, would be just as valid as any other. (What the heck, both the regional accreditors and the BPPVE require that institutions meet certain financial requirements, don’t they?)

    I do, however, agree with you when you wrote, ”… all they [the employers] really wanted was to be assured that the degree was earned by way of real study versus a purchased diploma, if you will.” But the only way we can be assured of this (solely in the context of a degree) is if the applicant earned his or her degree from an institution that met some kind of minimum standards (insert the, by now, familiar refrain as to what the minimum standards in the United States are, here). I, for one, do not believe, that a course or school, whose only method of evaluating student learning is an unproctored, open book, multiple choice, take home exam, that allows days if not weeks for completion (as attested to by several individuals who have attended CA approved schools) is evidence of (as you put it) real study. Under those conditions, even I could probably pass any course without any studying at all.

    And the bottom line is this. If CA approval truly were equivalent (as in the QA process being as rigorous or exacting) as regional accreditation as you suggest (and as you phrased your question to employers), wouldn’t more CA approved schools be applying for, and being granted, regional accreditation? They aren’t, and the reason is simple; it isn’t.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2002
  5. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited university!

    If somebody asked me that question, I would interpret it to mean something like this: "Academic QA is currently performed by private accreditation associations. If this same function were performed by a state agency instead, would you continue to accept it?"

    In fact most employers already accept foreign university graduates from countries where the government performs the accreditation function.

    Answering "yes" to your question is still consistent with believing that no American state currently enforces "the same QA measure(s)" and with refusing to accept state approved degrees.
  6. simon

    simon New Member

  7. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

  8. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    simon - a person can display narcissism without suffering with Narcissistic Personality Disorder just as a person can make a stupid mistake without having a low IQ score. I was a bit surprised with the severity of your reaction. Perhaps I had underestimated the degree of your sensitivity to these issues or perhaps I have just spent too much time on those "no holds barred" alt. newsgroups where people are routinely rude and crude, worrying little about what they say and what is said in return. It's clear to me now that I've hurt your feelings and for that I aplogize. You're obviously quite upset. I had no idea that this would cause you so much distress. I said at the end of my last posting that I would let the whole thing go but it seems clear that that will not be enough. Here is my proposal:
    I will refrain from responding to any of your posts, in this or any other thread, past present or future. I will not create any postings or threads that reference you, your academic background, your DL connections or lack thereof.
    You can post any sort of response to this message that you see fit and I will remain silent. I only ask that you then let it go. No more postings, no personal messages, no email on this subject. You can take your best shot, but remember - only one. Perseveration beyond that point indicates an entirely different sort of problem and I'm not interested in escalating this any further.
  9. simon

    simon New Member

  10. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member


    Tom has, by his posts, proven himself to be rational, level headed, and kind. Your irrational posts are quickly discrediting anything you write. Instead of attacking Jack why don't you either directly answer him, or if you find that impossible ignore him. It would be much better than the lengthy attacks you have made.
  11. simon

    simon New Member

  12. simon

    simon New Member


    Perhaps over-determined but definitely rational ! Obviously, your observations are quite rational, fair and defintely impartial!

  13. Bill Highsmith

    Bill Highsmith New Member

    In a lawsuit by an anonymous Internet entity against a Person, who or what is the injured party? Where is the remuneration sent? It sounds like one the world's shortest trials.

    Can a licensed psychologist diagnose a fictional character and thereby run into trouble with the APA? Isn't an anonymous poster a fictional character?
  14. DWCox

    DWCox member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited university!


    I haven't been very clear, have I?

    On more than one occasion I had an employer inquire in detail regarding the State QA process. At this point, I would give a brief explanation (comparing RA QA Standards/methods to State Approval QA Standards/Methods) and refer them to the CA BPPVE website as an example of the State Approval QA method.

    I am sorry for the confusion!

    Regards, Wes
  15. kajidoro

    kajidoro New Member

    This "Ignore Simon" feature is kinda cool. I just wish it completely obliterated all posts by the ignored person inside my login session instead of just hiding them and reminding me they are still there with a click.

  16. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited university!

    I'm just curious. Could you please share your brief explanation comparing RA QA standards/methods and State Approval QA standards/methods?

    Also, if the CA BPPVE is just an example of the State Approval QA method, what other states do you feel have similar QA standards/methods?
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2002
  17. DWCox

    DWCox member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited universi


    I enclosed for your review the very standards published by both the NCA and CA BPPVE.

    I tried without success to post the standards for NCA accreditation and CA BPPVE approval but the website would not permit my post, since it was like, 23,000 charactors too long.

    Go read the CA BPPVE standards for approval and compare those with the NCA standards for accreditation and then show me the difference. Don't waste your time, there VERY little.

    I would even go as far as to guess that if I removed the Identifiers (specific language, terminology, etc) in each set of standards you couldn't accurately pick which set of standards was RA versus CA BPPVE. You could guess be correct 50% of the time but that's it.

    Several states utilize the approval system, some have even gone as far as gaining USDOL recognition for their efforts.

    Regards, Wes
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2002
  18. Bill Highsmith

    Bill Highsmith New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited univ

    This has been discussed various times and the counter-argument is always: the state has standards but has no staff or budget to enforce them.

    With $30. for website registration and MS Notepad, you can begin DW Cox Accreditation Agency International tomorrow, accredit all the universities you want, and adopt either standard, but that does not mean you have the resources to visit and substantively review the procedures of the universities. All you could do is put the standards on your website and hope for the best.

    I'm basically parroting past posts, but they claim that there is little disagreement from the state about this.
  19. I agree with Bill. It's the depth of the process that seems to differ. How deep is the self-study? How deep are the visit and report by the team of evaluators? How much effort and care are put into the accreditation decision, based on the self-study, the team report, institutional response, etc?
  20. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Back To Why I laugh

    Perhaps I didn’t express myself clearly enough; I shall strive to do better in the future. I wasn’t personally interested in researching whether the NCA and the BBPVE standards are identical, nor was this the topic of discussion. My question pertained to the research you claimed to have conducted, and your conclusions that CA approved degrees were universally accepted, even by employers that required accredited degrees.

    At first you claimed that the research was funded by the USDOL, and out of 28 employers, 100% accepted CA approved degrees (after some education on your part and referring them to the BBPVE Web site). Only after I questioned whether our tax dollars were being spent on such an issue, you backpedaled and stated that, the CA BPPVE was never mentioned, but instead, you asked an extremely hypothetical question that if a state government were to conduct the exact same (?) QA measure as regional accreditation would the degree be acceptable.

    You then attempted to distance yourself further from the claim of having conducted research on the matter by stating that, ” On more than one occasion I had an employer inquire in detail regarding the State QA process. At this point, I would give a brief explanation (comparing RA QA Standards/methods to State Approval QA Standards/Methods) and refer them to the CA BPPVE website as an example of the State Approval QA method.”

    My question concerned the brief explanation you gave these employers that resulted in them unanimously accepting CA approved degrees. According to your post, you didn’t tell them to do their own research and compare standards (not that they would’ve taken the time to do so); instead you said they gave you an answer based on the explanation you proffered. Because of your longstanding opinion that CA approval is tantamount to accreditation (a view, incidentally that not even the BPPVE subscribes to) I was simply curious as to the details of your so-called brief explanation that resulted in such dramatic support for unaccredited schools, even among employers that until then required accredited degrees as a mandatory condition of employment.

    Being that you claim not one, but two, RA Masters degrees, Wes, I’m sure you know that there is a significant difference, especially when offering it in support of a particular position or assertion (not to mention passing off opinion as fact) between government sponsored research resulting in specific statistics, and an occasional inquiry.

    The fact remains that you cited research and statistics (government sponsored, no less) in support of your assertion that CA approved schools would be universally (you said 100%) accepted by employers, only to then recant and dismiss the whole matter by saying you simply weren’t being very clear.

    Were you also being unclear in your post of December 31 of last year? In it you wrote, “I recently completed a labor market survey (as a professional consulting assignment from The U.S. Dept. of Labor, Office of Workers Compensation) of 28 large Kentucky employers. Only half required an accredited degree and none required the accreditation to be RA. The other half told me that an unaccredited degree would be accepted if that State of which the degree was awarded conducted it's own QA process -- like that of California's.” There it is again, government sponsored research that asked about California’s QA process.

    Perhaps your post of January 21 was clearer when you wrote, ”I recently conducted a small survey of employers located in South Central Kentucky for the US Dept of Labor and learned that only 1/2 required a degree from an accredited institution. The other 1/2 did even care. The 1/2 that required an accredited degree advised that they would accept an unaccredited degree when it was explained that the unaccredited degree was earned from an institution which participates a QA regulatory process.” What possible QA regulatory process could you be referring to? It wouldn’t by any chance be CA/BPPVE, would it?

    Although you recently have denied it, you previously have claimed, on more than one occasion, that while you were supposedly conducting contracted research on the acceptability of an accredited degree earned via distance learning for the USDOL, you engaged in the self-serving activity of asking questions concerning the acceptability of unaccredited degrees, and endeavored to enhance the utility of unaccredited degrees (by attempting to convince employers they were equivalent to accredited degrees).

    Clarity, like truth and ethics, appears to be a commodity in short supply. However, the bottom-line in this: CA approval is not equivalent to regional accreditation. That you will be able to convince some unsuspecting employers, is a given; if it weren’t so, enrollment at unaccredited schools would drop to practically zero. To attempt to do the same, however, on this forum, this distance learning community that is populated by unarguably some of the most knowledgeable distance education experts on the planet, and have the hubris to support your contentions with research that you first claim took place and then deny it ever happened, is ludicrous.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2002

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