Last call for advice before I commit to an unaccredited university!

Excellent comments. I will apply to at least 7 RA universities. I want to work on a Masters degree in Finance. Cheers.

 

Dave: I for one never question the importance of regional accreditation. Without contest it is the norm. The only question is should it be. Having been involved in the accreditation "process" (read complete waste of my and everyone else's time, money, and energy) three times (under WASC) I could do nothing but question its validity. I was profoundly umimpressed by the new WASC "instrument" as they like to call it. And honestly too, I was stunned at how expensive the process is. WASC has one expensive...ah, instrument. I'm just glad I'm not a school.

Craig

 

My opinon on unaccredited schools is that there are good ones, mediocre ones, not-so-great ones, and outright degree mills. The problem is that most people don't know enough to differentiate between them.

Most articles I've seen that "out" degree mill holders invariably refer to the mill as an unaccredited school. That's a perfectly accurate description, but it also taints the legitmate unaccredited schools. When the Columbia State scandal was at its peak, how many people with degrees from California Coast suffered embarrassment at trying to explain how their unaccredited school was different from Columbia State? I think this explains it best:

A degree mill is always unaccredited.

An unaccredited school is not always a degree mill, though it might be.

I personally don't ever want to be put in the position of having to explain that about my resume.


Bruce

 

We disagree. Everyone should seek as much education as they can afford. Does it really matter if people who are less educated laugh at you? No, it doesn't.

In my view, only someone is insufficiently educated would laugh at another person for seeking education. Actually, most employers/clients/friends won't laugh at you for doing a non-RA degree. This is an unsubstantiated myth. They will simply view it as continuing education and it won't count as a professional credential.

Do an RA degree if the field of study is of interest and the degree is accessible. Do a non-RA degree if RA degrees are not available. But always consider that becoming better educated, even if it is through a non-RA degree, is better than doing nothing at all. You're doing people a disservice by telling them to do an RA degree or do nothing at all. Again, we disagree...

Cheers,

Dave

 

Dave education and degree programs are two seperate subjects. Education involves many things of which a college degree program is just one. In fact I view it as a minor one. If you are suggesting people who are incapable of pursuing a RA degree program should pursue an unaccredited program for self enrichment I would not disagree with you.

As has been pointed out degree programs are really about certification and to be capable of that they need accreditation. Like it or not in the US RA is the universally accepted accreditation. While I do not know it for a fact I do accept the idea that potential employers will see a known unaccredited school as a possible degree mill.

Again if a degree is in any way employment related it needs to be accredited. As has been pointed out RA programs are available as cheap and probably as easy as any unaccredited program that is not a degree mill.

 

Come now, Bruce, then what are you going to do with that Ph.D. in Criminology you obtained from American College for $199.00? Can I have it?

 

Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

“Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.”
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Not all facts require research in order to be true. In actuality many of the conclusions based on research are later amended, revised or even completely disproved. In order to prove my assertion that people laugh at the antics of unaccredited degree holders requires only that one person (me, for example, although there are many others) laugh at the antics of unaccredited degrees holders. That’s it! Surely this simple logic does not elude you.

Moreover, I only revisited the issue because your pronouncements that this was only my opinion, inferred that it wasn’t true. Although what I stated was a fact, even if it were an opinion, that wouldn’t make it untrue. Is it your contention, that due to lack of research, no one, ever, will laugh at the antics of an unaccredited degree holder?

To refresh your memory, this paragraph was included in response to two very specific questions you posed to me. Furthermore, it clarified that it wasn’t schools, or the educational pursuits of any individual, that made me laugh, but instead the antics (particularly the attempts to convince others that their degree is the equivalent of accredited credentials) of unaccredited degree holders.

And no, not all unaccredited schools are diploma mills, just the vast majority.

Data points? (Here we go again! ) The examples I provided are familiar to anyone who has followed recent events in distance learning, and can be found right here, on this forum. I have no intentions to single out individuals for further humiliation, however. I was simply providing some examples (and only because you asked) of the kind of behavior on the part of holders of unaccredited degrees that I find comical.

Once again, I am not discussing individual schools. I repeat, I take all schools seriously. And yes, I can name a few unaccredited schools that are making a legitimate effort at education, but they are the exception rather than the rule (as noted in my original post in this thread). They are notable precisely because of the niche markets they serve, and because there are so very, very few of them; far many more unaccredited schools are diploma mills.

I stated that regional accreditation is the educational standard in the United States. Once again, you claim that is only my opinion, as if saying so would make the assertion untrue. If you disagree with such a statement, why don’t you say so and state what it is you believe to be the educational standard in the United States? And if accreditation isn’t that important why do so many unaccredited schools claim illegitimate accreditation from a bogus accreditor?

Please don’t cloud the issue with vocational schools. As to who decides, society decides, and already has. Like it or not, in the United States, regional accreditation is the de facto standard. And as to being substandard, that is the correct terminology when something does not meet the standard.

You seem to get confused every time I address an issue you brought up, or respond to one of your questions. You asked about unaccredited schools that weren’t providing a good value for the money and why. My point was that any time the same degree could be earned from an accredited school for a similar amount of money, due to the increased utility of the accredited degree, the unaccredited school did not represent a good value. (You now seem to agree.)

Once again, the issue is the degree, not education. And I do not dismiss all unaccredited schools, and therefore, it is your premise that is flawed. I just happen to agree with the consensus that because there is inadequate or nonexistent oversight of these schools, the degrees being offered are not the equivalent to those earned at an accredited institution.

And I do not laugh at those individuals who are considering unaccredited schools, as you accuse me of doing. Instead, I try to educate them concerning accreditation issues in the United States, and the difference in utility between an accredited degree and an unaccredited one. I also disagree that quality assurance is secondary; formal education implies standards and quality assurance.

As a matter of fact, I have never personally denigrated a holder of an unaccredited degree. To me they are akin to the individuals who, for whatever personal reasons buy fake Rolex watches. I’m sure the watch looks good, probably tells the correct time, and fulfills the need to impress others because many people believe it to be the real thing. However, if that same individual attempted to convince me, that the watch was a genuine Rolex, or worse still, attempt to sell it to me as such, I reserve the right to laugh at their antics. Similarly, the frantic attempts of those who hold or are pursuing unaccredited degrees to convince others that their degrees are equivalent to those earned at regionally accredited institutions appear comical to me. What they frequently fail to realize is that their efforts are an exercise in futility. Those who are unaware of accreditation issues do not suspect there is any difference (and I’m sure no energy is expended attempting to make them aware of the differences ), while those who are at all familiar with the American system of accreditation will not be swayed by their arguments. They might, however, like me find them amusing.

Actually, medical doctors that did not graduate from an accredited school and pass licensure are not called Nurse Practitioners; they are called quacks and frauds, and in more precisely, criminals. However, according to your reasoning, someone who earned a doctoral degree from an unaccredited school should not be use the title Ph.D., but instead something else. (On this we can perhaps agree. )

However, your statement that the AMA loathes Nurse Practitioners is news to me. Do you have any evidence to back this up? Please cite your sources. This statement cannot be interpreted as personal opinion; you are ascribing a particular mind-set and actions to one professional group towards an entire profession in the same industry.

In any event, I offered the medical doctor analogy is response to your suggestion that consumers are always better served by having a greater number of choices. As you can see, this is not necessarily true.

True, regional accreditation isn’t a magic talisman, but it not only provides basic quality assurance, but also, in many instances, forces institutions to improve their quality and efficiency. Just ask any institution that is a candidate for accreditation, or has been placed on probation by their accreditor, how many changes they’ve had to implement.

This reminds me of a quote from comedian Steven Wright, “Have you ever imagined a world without hypothetical situations?”

As to competency, the question cannot be answered. However, as to the utility of each degree, the Ph.D. from the RA school far outweighs the one from the unaccredited school that currently may be illegal to use in several states.

Now here’s an interesting marketing question for you. Would enrollment at unaccredited schools experience a significant drop, if, by law, they were forced to offer degree titles that differentiated them from those earned at accredited institutions? Why?

 

Re: Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

Really?

No. Never said or implied.

Thanks for clarifying your point. Laugh students. No laugh schools. No laugh education. Got it.

More generalization. Which ones?

Point?

More generalization. Opinion or fact? Which schools?

You misread. RA is the standard. That point wasn't contested. Yawn.

Off topic. Don't know. Perhaps you should research this.

Vocational schools are valid yet largely unaccredited. Wanna research this?

You misread. RA is the standard. That point isn't contested. Yawn.

You misread. Bored not confused. Investigate RA schools first. Then look at unaccredited schools. Repeatedly said this. Yawn!

Flip-flop. You now agree with me. Wow. Took awhile.

Flip-flop. You now agree with me. Well, almost except for the QA issue. Laugh at students. Got it.

Flip-flop. You now don't laugh at students but find them amusing. Or do still laugh or something. Not clear. This is how this all started... Just pick a position and stay with it.

You misread. Must a point in there somewhere. Can't find it.

Mr. Opinion suddenly wants sources? Ha. Ha. I know three Nurse Practitioners.

Sorry, wrong again. Consumers are served by more choices.

Right! Congratulations.

Good quote.

You answered a different question.

Might go down. Wanna research this?

Adios,

Dave

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

Why does the image of Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra's classic character Don Quixote de la Mancha flailing away at windmills in the mistaken belief he is battling and slaying monstrous giants come to mind?

I would suggest some careful reading before espousing your preconceived convictions disguised as if they were a logical reply to my posts. Moreover, I will not sit idly by while you twist and spin my words (I notice you snip liberally but quote infrequently), and attribute statements to me that I did not make solely to suit your purposes.

Once again (and they say repetition is the mother of learning ), please provide the direct quote where I said that any school is laughable (on the contrary, I’m on record saying that I take them all seriously). Moreover, do you have any evidence that I ever said that unaccredited schools are always inappropriate, much less that a great service was being provided crusading against them? I understand you have a marketing background, but in this discussion, your propensity for hyperbole is doing your arguments and credibility a great disservice.

And although I agree with you that the positions “as articulated” are indefensible, you are the only one articulating them thusly. Moreover it was I who brought up the issue that that all regionally accredited should be fully explored before even considering an unaccredited school. However, if that were to truly take place, how many legitimate unaccredited options would remain?

Here’s a simple experiment. For every unaccredited school providing legitimate education opportunities that cannot be procured at a regionally accredited institution you name, I’ll name five regionally accredited schools (and that’s just schools, not degree programs). Who will run out of names first? Care to wager on the outcome?

And because you seem to have a penchant for statistics and quantitative methods, here’s perhaps a more interesting experiment. If you were to throw a dart at a comprehensive list of unaccredited schools what are the chances of hitting a degree mill? (Hint: I’m willing to bet good money you’ll hit a mill.) What if you were to throw the same dart at a list of regionally accredited schools? Can you even name one regionally accredited degree mill? The only one that comes even close to being accused of being a degree mill (undeservedly, in my opinion) is the University of Phoenix.

Moreover, I’ll tell you what I believe is truly harmful. It is the attempts of many individuals (who, unsurprisingly, always hold or are pursuing unaccredited degrees) to mislead others into choosing a similar unaccredited degree path, in the egotistical, misguided notion that it will enhance the utility and acceptance of their own degrees. Some argue that misery loves company, but I think the prevailing theory is that there is safety in numbers.

And I respect the fact that your views are changing and evolving. For example, you now are recommending considering an unaccredited degree only if a similar accredited possibility does not exist. I commend you for that. Where are you pursuing your doctorate?

But, as always, I reserve the right to laugh when someone attempts to convince me its Shinola.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

Gus,

Sorry for the confusion, but the post you're quoting from was written to someone else.

I do understand your position on the unaccredited school issue, but I don't agree with all your conclusions.

In sum, we disagree on a few points but agree on many others.

See ya later,

Dave

 

Russell.....I'm an informed DL consumer. I know that I could get a phony doctorate for a lot less than that.


Bruce

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

You asked a question in response to my statement that not all facts require research in order to be true. The answer is yes, really. The fact that I love my wife and children is true. What research do you propose to substantiate that fact? Do you need more examples?

I never stated that it was your contention, that due to lack of research, no one, ever, will laugh at the antics of an unaccredited degree holder. I simply asked a question. What you did imply, however, is that because I did not (not could not, mind you) cite any research, my contention that people laugh at the antics of unaccredited degree holders was untrue. In the English language, when someone dismisses one’s comment as merely opinion, the implication is that it is untrue.

No, you still don’t get it. I don’t laugh at the students. I laugh at the antics (There! I’ve used pretty much every method available to highlight a word or phrase.) of unaccredited degree holders, particularly their attempts to convince others that their degree is the equivalent of accredited credentials.

I cannot provide you on this forum a comprehensive list of all the unaccredited schools that are diploma mills because each post is limited to only 10,000 characters. (How verbose must one be to discover this tidbit of information? )

First, that I make an honest attempt to answer every one of your questions. Second, if you are new to distance learning, it is incumbent upon you to do your own research before attempting to engage a fellow forum member in contentious debate.

These are not generalizations but common knowledge among those that have had an interest in distance learning for any length of time, and as such, they are fact. Once again, to disclose a list of all unaccredited schools that are diploma mills in a public forum is not only an invitation to litigation, but (because I post under my real name) could quite possibly jeopardize the safety and security of my family due to the criminal element involved in these activities. I am simply not that stupid. Stop asking.

More than once, when I stated that regional accreditation is the educational standard in the United States, you claimed that this was only my opinion, implying that this assertion was untrue. When I asked repeatedly if you actually disagreed with this statement you replied, “Yawn.” I can only assume that to mean you are asleep at the wheel.

You say that the issue of why so many unaccredited schools claim illegitimate accreditation from bogus accreditors is off topic, but it isn’t, it actually goes to the heart of the matter as to why unaccredited degree holders go to such great lengths to try to convince others that their degrees are equivalent to those earned at accredited institutions. At least you admit you don’t know.

The very brief answer is because even the unaccredited schools recognize the value of accreditation, recognize that many of their potential customers (students) are increasingly becoming aware of the issues surrounding accreditation, belief they are much more marketable claiming some sort of accreditation, and are seriously deficient where ethics are concerned. The problem has become so pervasive, that many believe that not claiming illegitimate accreditation is one of the hallmarks of the better unaccredited schools.

Vocational schools do not grant academic degrees. This forum (and more specifically, this thread) concerns Associates, Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorates (and occasionally high school diplomas as well).

If you now agree that RA is the standard (instead of claiming that this was only opinion and inferring it wasn’t true) then you cannot argue the point that any institution that does not meet the standard is deemed to be (by definition) substandard. Try coffee (alternatively, I’ll try using smaller words).

How can you be bored by truthful, factual answers to questions you have posed yourself? And once again, in English, when you state repeatedly that you do not know, it indicates confusion, not boredom. And for the record (isn’t wonderful that no one can go back and edit their posts?), it was I, not you (who was busy making ad hominem attacks) who brought up the need to exhaust all RA possibilities before even considering an unaccredited degree.

Flip-flop? Agree with you? What hubris! Are referring to your unfounded allegations that I dismiss all unaccredited schools? I have never done that, and challenge you to quote me and cite your source. (In fact, in my original post in this thread I specifically noted that there were exceptions.) But if you are referring to my statement that because there is inadequate or nonexistent oversight of these schools, the degrees being offered are not the equivalent to those earned at an accredited institution, then it would be you who is agreeing with me.

Where’s the flip-flop? How can I possibly agree with you if I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying? If you don’t quote, if you don’t elucidate your points clearly, what am I to do? All you do is say I am flip-flopping and agreeing with you, once again, as if saying so makes it true

Is the concept of laughing at what amuses you foreign to you? They are not mutually exclusive concepts. I often laugh at what amuses me. And as to my position, and how consistent it is, the search engine of this forum will provide with all of my post at the click of a button.

The point was that when I suggested (with tongue firmly in cheek) that we do away with the requirement that medical doctors have accredited degrees and be subject to licensure, you countered (erroneously, I might add) that such individuals already existed and were called Nurse Practitioners. Although Nurse Practitioners are indeed graduates of accredited schools and are subject to licensure, the logical inference (intentional or not) is that if the medical doctor did not graduate from an accredited school and achieve licensure, he or she simply would have a different title or degree. I agreed with that premise in that perhaps the graduates of unaccredited schools should be granted different degree titles than those earned at accredited institutions.

What, only three data points to back up a potentially litigious statement?

Don’t you mean consumer are better served by more choices? Is this always true? Is this true even if by providing more choices the quality and utility of each of each choice is significantly reduced? What about if one or two choices actually meet the consumer’s needs, and we throw into the mix a dozen others that actually causes harm? Does the consumer benefit from that? What if it absolute necessary that the consumer select a product (a life-saving drug, for example) and the plethora of choices makes it impossible to decide. Does the consumer still benefit?

No, I stated quite clearly that the question you asked (in a futile attempt to make a point) could not be answered (although the fact that the question could not be answered was not the point you were trying to make). I simply went on to answer the closest approximation to the question that made any sense at all.

And in conclusion, thank you, thank you, and thank you.

In a single post you managed to pretty much prove every single point I was trying to make, and much more conclusively than I ever could have. (I feel so ineloquent. )

Must go now… before I start quoting Dilbert.

 

Excellent arguments all around. Again I stress we are using personal value systems in the context of DL. We all know how great it is and how it will become one day "normal". I like to think of us who value and argue DL as true visionaries and a driving force behind its growth. As we get excited, others get informed and excited. As we argue RA/nonRA, we fuel a basic need of the consumer; choice. And it is this right to choose that gives us our freedom to make either a good choice or bad choice. However good or bad as it relates to the DL debate can only be defined as it fits into a person's value system. I understand the RA/nonRA argument as it relates to academia and certification. Obviously you cannot become an MD without the proper credentials. But management, business, drama, history? Once a person starts a program they will know then and only then if they made the right choice. Someone could tell me how wonderful something is but unless I experience it for myself, I would never know if it is right. As DL continues to grow and diversity (I'm not usually a big believer in that word as it tends to invoke the most basic meaning of "prejiduce" in that it recognizes differences ,labels people, and puts them into groups ) is accepted, the whole RA/nonRA debate will be centered on certification, lincensure, academia where it belongs.

 

Gus,

Hi. I didn't have time to read the filibuster, but I didn't want to leave you hanging. I appreciate your zeal for this topic but this is where I declare victory and leave, so to speak. Please re-read my posts and consider that there may be other worthy opinions other than your own. See you around...

Adios,

Dave

 

Re: Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

This is an excellent example of why I find their antics so hilarious. If their degree was fully equivalent they wouldn't even be arguing that it was fully equivalent. They wouldn't need to defend it. I mean the whole evaluation of a degree is based on personal opinion. The inherenet hopeless hypocrisy of their argument I find very worthy of a good belly laugh. They also like to confuse degree and education which provides another source for amusement.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

Why would one want to go to Stanford? Degree and education, no? Why would one want to go to Calamus University? Degree and education, no? I am in no way comparing Stanford to Calamus, but degree and education are interlaced. It's all a matter of circumstance and choice.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

I would (and have) argued that a degree and an education have little to do with each other. But even if it is as you suggest-- that the two are intertwined-- what does Calamus have to do with either? They provide neither an education nor a degree.

 

Is APA accredation that important?

I have a grad school in mind that I want to go for psychology. It is not accredited by the APA but by the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools. Is that good enough? Would that allow me to practice just about anywhere?I welcome any advice, thanks!

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

As I said it is a matter of circumstance and choice. Calamus does offer "education" and a "degree"

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What Makes Me Laugh

Do they offer any education? They list courses on their website, but do they have course materials and instructors?