Jerry Falwell Jr in the news again

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by JoshD, Aug 6, 2020.

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  1. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I wasn't referring to the resultant degree, Chris. And yes - the recent change in Canada has been to the J.D. Why we always have to do it the American way, I'm not sure. I know my excellent physician has a Bachelor's in Medicine - earned in Ireland, where they make darn good doctors. That Bachelor's is sufficient formal education to practice medicine here. And to be called "Doctor."

    What I was referring to is your statenmet that a first degree is not necessary to enter Law School in many places. Contrary to your assertion, I believe it IS generally necessary to have a first degree prior to law school admission, both here and in the US. . The resultant degree? Grad or not? I'm not interested. Just the necessity of a first degree

    Once again, here is your statement with which I take issue.

    AFAIK, a first degree was required in both US and Canada for entry to the LL.B. and no change in that when the JD replaced it. I believe in the US, lawyers holding LL.B degrees could get new diplomas as JDs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  3. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Noted. I am not from the U.S., if that's what you were thinking. My statement was in reference to Jamaica and the other Commonwealth nations that still require the LL.B to practice law. An undergraduate degree is not required. A'levels (beyond O'levels) are typically required but not undergraduate education.
     
  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes, Chris. I know where you are from. You have mentioned that in previous posts. And yes again - that is the requirement there, as you say. My only point was that it's not the same in US or in Canada - which is, after all, a Commonwealth-orbit nation.

    The Br3itish-model system with its A and O levels has a lot going for it, as I see it. Here, I think elementary school lasts for too many years and high school - possibly too few.
    But that's a different discussion.
     
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    [
    And the country with the world's largest number of English speakers (India - over 800m) also requires a first degree for law school - or an option whereby the student completes an "integrated honours degree" (Law and an Honours Bachelor's) in five years of study. (That sounds like a pretty tough program!)

    "Bachelor’s degree in law (LL.B) can be pursued in India only after completing an under graduation degree in any field, such as B.Com, B. Sc etc. or choosing to pursue an integrated honours degree." From here: https://www.intelligentpartners.com/study-law-in-india/

    So - not all Commonwealth-orbit countries have the same requirements as UK and Jamaica, it appears.
     
  6. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

    You can practice there with a North American JD if you do UWI's LEC program afterwards, can't you?
     
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    According to the rules, Steve, you may enter the LEC program if you hold a law degree the Faculty of Law deems equivalent to their Bachelor of Laws, from any common law country (that includes US). And yes - that's the intent - to qualify for practice in the W.I. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Education_Certificate
     
  8. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    10-4.

    Yes, that's accurate. I have a cousin with a J.D. from Florida State University. He completed the LEC program at UWI and now practices law in Jamaica.
     
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Just talked to a guy who finished his PhD at Liberty recently. He correlated success on four different CLEP general tests with eventual graduation. People who'd successfully passed the English test were three times more likely to graduate, History, Social Sciences, or Math: twice as much. Natural Sciences didn't show a significant difference.

    Fascinating stuff, especially coming from a school who is a pioneer in distance learning (and extremely liberal on how much credit by testing they'll accept.)
     
  10. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    The vast majority of ABA schools require a bachelor's degree for entry. The ABA rules don't. The minimum ABA requirement is 90 semester hours and every now and then someone gets in that way. Some states seem to require a bachelor's as well as a law degree for admission to the bar but most don't.

    By "post graduate " I merely meant that the individual I was talking about had a BA before he went to law school.
     
  11. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    But in California you can get admitted as a "regular student" at a CalBar accredited school with an AA or AS degree or 60 semester hours of a BA program.
     
  12. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Oh, I forgot to mention that the BA requirement dates from the 1920s.
     
  13. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Is there an official study on this? Refereed and published?

    Thanks for the clarity.
     
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Nosborne. I knew that could be done somewhere - but I forgot which State. I should have known - Where else but California!! I think maybe I first heard it years ago on DD - probably from you.
     
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Great question. I thought he said it was part of his dissertation. In response to your question, I went and looked at it and its subject is anything but. I'm not sure where the confusion is, but I want to hold off on my assertion about CLEP until I clear it up. Thanks for asking.
     
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  16. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    It's all nonsense anyway. In several states, one can read for the bar and never attend law school at all. Even there, SOME UG preparation is usually required; Washington State requires a Bachelor's degree. California requires the same 60 hours.
     
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  17. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

    Yes, although sadly the requirements are so onerous that essentially no one takes them up on it.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Turns out the answer is "yes." I grabbed his master's thesis by mistake. Once I got his doctoral dissertation, it was clearly about CLEP tests and graduating. I'm not going to assess--nor opine about--the efficacy of the study; I have no reason to doubt its rigor. And I'm fascinated by the results and their implications.
     
  19. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for following up. I wouldn't doubt the validity of the results nor the overall rigor of the Ph.D. I assume all doctoral students at Liberty go through the same rigorous research process before their study is approved.
     
  20. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Well, it's a safe assumption, but not a perfect one. The only Liberty dissertation I've actually read was horrible, for example. It was done by an employee of mine, so I read it one day. It was simply not done correctly. Is that an indictment of Liberty or the level of quality it requires? No, of course not. It is one--and only one--piece of evidence. It would be silly to draw such a huge conclusion based on one case.

    The real fact is that people do slip through the process sometimes. Union was that way when I went through the PhD. The best were really good, but some very awful ones got through, too. But that was the nature of the program; it was extremely liberal regarding what people could create and how they did it. One peer of mine was working on one with poetry written by unnamed women in the Bible. All of it was supported by scholarly theory and evidence, naturally, but it was incredibly creative, too. (She already had a PhD and was using the Union program to re-direct her professional life.) Another was doing research on psychic surgery...and taking it seriously and not objectively at all. We called those people "The Fringe."
     

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