Jd Degree

Nosborne 48,

Thanks for jumping in on this. I know that this topic has been beaten to death. I'm just trying to get more facts about the opportunities for the non-bar jd and not just depend on opinion and conjecture. This is why I've been emphasizing that one should research this issue some more.

You're right if the position "calls for a JD" - like an attorney position or in-house counsel position. All of the postings that I've seen require that you have your JD from an ABA law school and/or have bar membership.

But, these are not the positions that I have been referring to in my prior posts.

I did a monster.com search for "law degree" - (if you decide to do the search, please use the quotes or your search will be too broad.)

Below, is just a sample of what I find.

A non-bar jd could apply for and may get these positions. A lot depends on what else the candidate is bringing to the table from their prior work experience. The non-bar jd could give the successful candidate an "edge" over other candidates.

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1. Tax Manager – Sirius Satellite Radio (New York, NY)

Requirements:
• Degree in accounting with a CPA preferred or law degree and at least 5 years relevant tax experience from a major public accounting firm or private industry related experience.
• Must have a strong understanding of FAS109, US GAAP, and Sarbanes-Oxley.
• Minimum two years experience preparing federal and state income/franchise tax returns.
• Sales tax billing systems experience a plus.
• Strong research skills.
• Ability to work independently and deal directly with business units and upper management while possessing strong written and oral communication skills.

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2. Legal Corporate Compliance Officer (North Carolina)

Requirements

Ability to work with confidential information.
Ability to lead and take responsibility for company polices and procedures and ensure they comply with all applicable laws and regulations.
Previous experience in corporate legal compliance.
Previous experience in a financial institution preferred.
Law degree preferred

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3. Fiduciary Executive - Private Client Services (JP Morgan Chase)

Desired Background/Experience:

Law degree preferred. Minimum of 10 years of trust and/or estate planning experience. Strong trust administration and interpersonal skills.

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4. Manager (PricewaterhouseCoopers), Chicago

Years of Experience Required = 5

Education Required
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BA/BS Degree Required. Law Degree preferred, Masters in Economics considered

5+ years of experience working in a professional services firm. Proven track record and strong business development skills. Prior experience in Transfer Pricing or International Tax is strongly desired.


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5. Contracts Manager (Norwood, MA)

We are looking for an individual to effectively prepare and negotiate service agreements. This includes working closely with sales and engineering staff and the General Counsel on drafting and negotiating US and international professional services agreements, non disclosure agreements, and reseller and partner agreements. Responsibilities also include advising project management and sales staff of contractual rights and obligations and providing clarification of contractual terms and conditions.

Additional Job Qualifications

Law Degree strongly preferred
Strong organizational and communication skills
Excellent written and verbal skills
Ability to produce timely and accurate work
Fluency in Spanish preferred



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6. Claims Specialist (Zurich North America)

Bachelors Degree or equivalent claims experience (General Liability, Commercial Auto, Medical Malpractice) a plus. We will also consider nurses, veterinary technicians or people who have worked at insurance carriers with medical record review experience. Working knowledge of Medicine a plus. Any legal experience or law degree a plus but not required. Must have strong verbal and written communication skills.

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7. Contract Drafter/Contract Analyst – Guy Carpenter (Minnesota)

Qualified candidates will have a high degree of initiative as well as:

· 3 to 4 years of reinsurance contract writing, reinsurance broking or other technical experience in the reinsurance industry;
· strong research and analytical skills;
· an excellent ability to prioritize and organize work and pay attention to detail;
· strong verbal and writing skills for communications with clients, markets, and colleagues;
· strong interpersonal skills for establishing and maintaining relationships;
· a strong sense of urgency;
· the ability to work independently;
· solid computer skills including Microsoft Word and Lotus Notes;
· College Degree required. English or Business major preferred. A law degree or equivalent research and writing skills a plus.
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This is just a sample from one job-site. One would need to research other job sites, talk to human resource personel and talk to recruiters who fill these types of positions to get a better handle on this.

Maybe there is a job market out there for people who would intentionally choose the non-bar track. Maybe finding positions such as these are not "exceptions" and are not "few and far between" as Dude asserts. And MAYBE, for the sake of argument, this is the MOST REASONABLE choice for most of the individuals who choose the online/correspondence jd degree.

The most important thing is for one to do their research about the possible job opportunities before one takes the plunge.

 

maaayyyybeeeeee....

And maybe not.

"law degree preferred"? I think you would find that there are PLENTY of lawyers applying for these positions in order to escape law practice. (I love my profession but half of us DON'T.)

Do you really think that a non-Bar J.D. would have a chance?

maaayyyybeeeee......but only if the applicant had other SUBSTANTIAL credentials like an accounting degree or years of experience.

 

J.D. degree use

Please do not be misled by the California correspondence
law schools.

1) If you graduated from one of the better law schools which in my opinion one of the better ones isNorthwestern California, (around since 1982 and have a number of verifiable practicing attorneys in Calif) and have
completed the Bar Program, yes you probably could get a job if you have previous experience in a particular field and the job happens to require a "law degree"

2) This will not work for jobs outside of California unless your admitted to the state or qualify for admittance to the state where
you are applying for the job since the law degree is not accredited.

3) Concord and Taft are DETC accredited, Taft has a decent record of bar passage but Concord Law School is a huge disappointment but in my opinon if one states they have a non-professional J.D. degree that is a non-bar J.D the fact that such degree is DETC accredited will not help in qualifying for a job.

Bottom line is that correspondence law degrees have LIMITED utility and use, essentially only for Bar Admission purposes.

A non-bar J.D. degree is useless for career purposes

Please be advised the Calif is in the process of changing everything.

Senate Bill 1568 will take away control of the BPPVE and give
it to the State Bar. (this was prompted by the lack of BPPVE
response a school called Saratoga University).

Once State Bar takes over they will slowly eliminate, non-bar J.D. degrees and close those 1 man operation law schools and a large portion of the residential unaccredited law schools.

I support this in California. There is no non-physician M.D. degree
and there should be no non-attorney J.D. degree.

 

Re: J.D. degree use

Could you enlighten me in regards to this lack of response to a school called Saratoga University?

 

Re: J.D. degree use

Interesting. Sometime during the fifteen years when I lived in Seattle (1986-2001), Seattle University had a non-ordination MDiv, though I do believe that the Seattle University MDiv does now qualify one to take one's ordination exams.

 

Re: Re: J.D. degree use

Hi Ted,

If I remembered correctly, Saratoga University was a one-man operation correspondence law school. One day, the owner disappeared all of sudden, and nowhere to be found. Some students weren't able to take Baby or General Bar because nobody could verify their studies.

 

SB1568

The scuttlebut in the State Bar of Calif is that they were so upset with the lack of the BPPVE to regulate Saratoga University and the pop up every few months of 1 man operation law schools even from people not admitted to the bar that finally a Senator
who has experience in bar admission regulation and has passed laws before in this area has decided to change the whole law school landscape in Calif.

There is a Plan:

I cant disclose sources but the State Bar is waiting for this law to pass before the Senate recesses so they will be able to implement their plan on corrrespondence and unaccredited law schools.

The long term plan is to only have 3 tiers of law schools in Calif.

ABA accredited, State Bar accredited and DETC accredited.

Further due to the controversy of people running around with
non-bar J.D. degrees, some completed in a year, this non-bar
degree will eventually be eliminated.

The State Bar does not want non-bar qualified people from using the J.D. degree which is a professional degree.

I support this bill entirely!

People that graduated from Saratoga, West Coast, and blah, blah,blah law school for a year and are running around with a Juris Doctor degree printed on some guy's laser printer is an insult
to those that went to law school and became bar qualified.

 

It should be interesting to see how this all turns out with the new regulations that the California Bar will impose.

I agree with you that the non-bar option will be eliminated eventually by the California Bar.

But, I would not be surprised that one will see some students register for the bar track, decide not to take the Baby Bar and General Bar, and still get the JD degree after four years of study.

Then, they could still apply for the types of positions that I mention above. And, depending upon their previous work experience and educational background (like in science, engineering or accounting), some - and who knows, maybe many - may get these types of positions.

I hope that the new regs will get the schools to disclose more about who their students are, what they were doing before the degree and what they are doing afterwards. Then we could have a more concrete picture of this.

I'm not advocating that one should not take the Baby Bar or General Bar. Of course, taking and passing these exams is the best thing to do.

 

Re: SB1568

Hi JDLLM2,

Do you know if Cal Bar has plan to accredit DETC accredited law schools? This will basically eliminate the Baby Bar.

 

law schools

The state bar will never accredit correspondence schools they will let the DETC do that but they will elminate the non-bar J.D. degree since it is a professional degree and they will require passing baby bar to continue onto and get the J.D. degree as a condition to meet to get the degree.

Bottom line is the State Bar is fed up with 1 man law schools,
fed up with law schools where the faculty is not admitted to the bar and fed up with non bar J.D. degrees.

Major Major changes are coming to unaccredited law schools in California and it is about time.

"NonBar Juris Doctor degrees hurt and demean and downgrade the value of those that earned the Juris Doctor degree from a legitimate school and passed the bar.

 

Re: My two cents...

If this is the case than I must agree with Nosborne completely. I had the understanding that the coursework had been the same between the two type of programs (80 s.h. or so), and that since the non-bar program wasn't under the constraints of the state bar requirements for four years of study, then a student was free to cram more material into three years. If the non-bar J.D. actually only requires 25% fewer semester hours, then that would also change my opinion so that I believe that it is not a J.D. at all.

 

As all of these positions are located outside of California (where unaccredited J.D. degrees are rare, and correspondence J.D.'s are probably not in the knowledge of most employers), I would have to argue that by mentioning "law degree preferred," MOST employers are implying graduation from an ABA program.

This is NOT to say that a correspondence non-bar "J.D." program could not help an applicant when in competition with another person with ZERO law credentials. In normal circumstances though, I believe that it will be a person's OTHER credentials which will be the DETERMING factor on whether this person is hired or not. This is why the degree is "essentially" and not COMPLETELY worthless. As most people already believe the market to be saturated with ABA graduates, a person with lower legal credentials than this will be at a severe disadvantage.

Imagine the possible reaction of an employer when told that the prospective applicant graduated from "Unaccredited Correspondence Law School University" with its non-bar J.D. "I never heard of that school, tell me about it. We have another applicant for the position who graduated from (place any ABA law school here) law school, what advantages do you have over him?"

The same argument can be made about countless other types of programs as well. There are a vast number of legitimate unaccredited (or DETC accredited) programs in other fields such as business, accounting, etc. Certainly applying for positions with these type of credentials are better than no credentials at all, but in the MAJORITY of circumstances the benefits are LIMITED and place the degree holder at a great disadvantage to his or her competition.

 

JDLLM2,


Have you heard anything about when they plan to vote on this bill and when they plan to hold hearings to discuss how to implement the changes?

I'm looking forward to seeing what the end result of these changes will be.

 

Hi alternatelaw,

Are you thinking about enrolling in one of these correspondence law schools?

 

Re: SB1568

Personally, I don't have any problem with people operating one man law correspondence law schools, or even offering non-bar J.D. programs so long as everything is completely disclosed to potential students. It is a political issue an whether it is the responsibility of the state to protect people from themselves (enrolling in subpar programs without properly researching the risks).

From what I understand, the man who ran Saratoga University had many problems over the years and one day just packed up and left without any notice to anyone, leaving many students in limbo. This was an unfortunate event for many, but we must remember that in life we get what we pay for. I am sure that if all progresses as proposed, the chances of things like the Saratoga event happening again will decrease. We must realize though, that with less competition (many law schools will surely go out of business) and more hoops to jump through (I'm sure obtaining DETC accreditation is not an easy task), the cost of a correspondence legal education is sure to significantly jump.

I might be wrong, but I really like West Coast School of Law. I spoke to the man who runs it on the phone a couple of times before ultimately deciding to enroll in the LLB program from the University of London. He graduated from the Taft program and passed the bar a few years back, so he actually has experience in this type of education. What impressed me most though was his upfront honestly in the program. He informed me that if I had ANY reasonable option to enroll in an ABA program, I should pursue that rather than his school. He told me that his program was a "bare bones" legal education designed to study as he had done completely to pass the bar examination (though I later noticed that he too was offering the non-bar "J.D." as well). I don't remember all specifics about the conversations, but when it came down to making a decision, the information he gave me helped me decide that London was my best option (though I am sure I would have decided differently if I was a California resident). After all, I just don't see how someone could go wrong by only paying $6000 over four years with a chance to become an attorney.

 

Even if the guy goes out of business, I believe that the reward outweighs the risk.

 

law school changes

One of the purposes, of the new law that will pass by end of June(out of many purposes and plans) is to eliminate 1 man law school operations completely.

Saratoga was an example of what goes wrong when a "law school" , goes down,......if you can call 1 man a law school.

For consumer protection the state bar is going to eliminate
1 man law schools and require a real school with faculty,registrar,
etc. West Coast will have to get on-board and move his operation out of his spare bedroom.

A faculty will be required in order to get eventual DETC accredited.

Second any non bar J.D. degree is useless, but I honestly believe
California will eliminate the Juris Doctor as a non-bar degree that
1 man can award to someone for 9 months of study and payment of a few thousand bucks.

I support 4 years of law study to take the bar exam by any study method one wants, but I DO NOT support 1 man operations awarding a DEGREE!

I went to law school for 4 years for a J.D. and 2 years for an LL.M, any bozo walking around with one of these stupid non bar J.D. degrees or declaring on his resume that after 9 months from Saratoga or West Coast, or Bob's Law School that such person is a Juris Doctor is a direct insult to me.

 

Re: law school changes

Where are we getting this figure about a nine-month JD? All the literature I have seen regarding the unaccredited, Cal Bar approved JD programs indicate that they require four years for the Bar-qualifying JD and three years for the non-Bar JD.

 

Re: law school changes

I was not aware of this. Which "schools" offer a non-bar J.D. after 9 months of study and payment of a few thousand bucks? Obviously such a "degree" would only be worth the paper on which it was printed.

Does this mean that you would support such an operation which allowed a "student" to study for four years, so long as when he or she finished this person was not awarded a "degree?"

My own opinion on the matter is that even a bar eligible J.D. from one of the better correspondence law schools (ie NWCU, Taft) has little value beyond its ability to give the user the resources to obtain a law license. After which time, it is the license which has the value as credentials and not the degree. As such, I just can't see that big of a difference between the programs, as it ulitimately comes down to the student's efforts to learn the material needed to pass the bar examination.

Also, if this is correct, and a person can obtain a non-bar "J.D." with only nine months of study, how is this a direct insult to you? I believe that such a person would clearly be making a fool of himself and would look not much different from the many cases discussed on this board about people obtaining "degrees" from degree mills. I certainly don't feel insulted by this type of person, I just feel sorry that they feel the need to do something like this and pretend to have legitimate credentials.

Out of curiousity, which law schools did you attend, and are you a member of the bar?

I am a long way from saying that this is a bad bill, as it appears to have many good ideas. I am just very nervous about anything which will further reduce one's options to become an attorney. I see how long the ABA has had almost a complete monopoly on the American legal education, and feel that this is not a good thing. Tuition prices at these law schools have skyrocketed and many people who would otherwise be interested in becoming attorneys are left with few options.

This has been a fun thread.

 

Support eliminating NON BAR J.D. degrees

If you read closely the non-bar J.D. programs say that the student is free to complete the program at their own pace and
are not subject to the 4 year degree requirement as a bar program requires.

While each law school may and some do have a min requirement for the J.D. degree there are law schools whose sites I have been too that have no min time for the J.D. degree. Read the sites. There are interested in tuition payment not providing 4 year professional license required J.D. degrees.

It is possible believe it or not to get a J.D. degree in a very short period of time at some of these past closed schools and some of the recent new law schools that the BPPVE just approved.

With the new SB1568 law coming into effect the State Bar will
eliminate these non-bar degrees.

I SUPPORT THE COMPLETE ELIMINATION OF NON BAR J.D. DEGREES! They serve no purpose whatsoever and again
degrade those that have a real Juris Doctor degree.

AGAIN, I am opposed to ANY non bar J.D. degree program just as I am sure many many Medical Doctors and Dentists WOULD BE against a non physician or non dentist medical or dental degree
if such a thing legally existed which it does not.

The point is those professional degrees dont exist in a non license availability and soon in Calif the non-bar or non-attorney J.D. degree will be phased out.

This is a good thing.

I support State Bar Accredited Law schools and other non ABA law schools, Concord, Taft, Northwestern, although I disagree with the non bar programs they offer which should be eliminated.

Buy the way one can NOT go to a residential unaccredited law school and proceed to the 2nd Year without passing the baby bar.

Its only the correspondence law schools that started the non bar crap and its about to be eliminated.

Go to the Calif State Bar website and you can read about every non ABA law school listed on the website.