DBA vs International PhD???

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by CT2389, Jan 18, 2020.

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  1. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Active Member

    What homophobic comment? I hope you're not referring to "negative Nancies" because this is applied to all genders. The only phobia I have is herpetophobia.

    I kinda agree. I am not a trained educator. However, I have been teaching business and criminal justice full-time going two academic years. Interestingly, the post called for 3 years of teaching but I applied nonetheless knowing that I am always making exceptions to the rules. So, I think I am a good teacher both in terms of personality and content delivery. My supervisors (based on evaluations) and my students (based on course surveys) agree that I am a good teacher. So, yea, I guess you can either teach or you can't. Of course, there are tenured professors who can't teach.

    Tell me something I don't know. Congrats on your Ph.D.

    I am not trying to win any game, sir. I'd be thrilled to make it to and exceed your age.

    Well, thank you. Shady past? Well, then I was a police officer in a developing country with not a lot of money to pay for a highly recognized college in the U.S. I attended a semester and a half at two different local universities, part-time evenings. I slept through lectures because I was too tired when I went to school after work. Back home, online learning wasn't a thing, but now it is. So, that's how I ended up at Ashworth. Do I regret my Ashworth route? Absolutely not. I had no student debt. In fact, I also paid for my MBA out of pocket. The first time I ever took a student loan was for my M.S. and even when I finish my Ph.D., I will have way less student debt than most students who only have an undergraduate degree. Ok, boomer? Thanks for the help over the years on DI!
     
  2. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Steve likes to bust people's balls like this. When I want to mess with him, I would say that *I* also have a PhD, and unlike his mine was earned traditionally, full-time, in STEM discipline. Sometime I go into this argument about how his Union PhD gets no respect from traditional academia and is functionally no different or better than "doctorates du jour" or the ones from "online universities" he is so keen to trash lately. It's all good fun. As a newbie, though, you should realize that some of what we say comes from experience and is worth listening to. Steve observes the field for long, long time (and, after all, DOES have an accredited PhD, even if it's from an "online" interdisciplinary program ;)*); dismissing his input might not be wise.

    Bottom line, we tend to talk about degrees here, but they're not the whole package. When I didn't get that teaching position back in the 2008, it was not because of the source of my degree (traditional, R1, RA/ABET). It was the uncommonly crappy market, my status as a foreigner, and a few missteps on my part. Similarly, my getting a chance to transition to teaching (as of this semester) is overwhelmingly about much better job market in CS. For academia, what you want to do is try to look and be as close to "traditional" as possible, and make academic-oriented resume. This forum might have some recommendations on the source of the doctorate. I would say you could do worse than Sacred Heart; it's "low-residence" rather than online, requires a dissertation, and past year dissertations are both available and seem academic in content (to me; not actually my field). You may look at say ESC Grenoble, Liverpool , Heriot-Watt etc., they are all worthy choices, but ultimately it's up to you. I don't feel ISM Paris is in the same league. What you'd want to do is make sure that by the time you apply your CV has "Teaching Experience" and "Publications" sections. Look as much like other applicants as possible, and hope the stars align just right.

    *I of course jest when I badmouth Steve's PhD program like that. Or am I? :emoji_stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
     
  3. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    I take Stan's jibes with a hefty grain of salt. But for accuracy's sake, I should note that Union was not an online program at all when I graduated - in fact, online programs did not yet exist. Today, of course, it is largely online (I've been out so long that I have no idea what their residency requirements are these days); indeed, if I had to do a Ph.D. today I would definitely not choose Union - or any other online doctorate program.
    Congratulations, Stan - you have just described Union at the time I graduated. That shows me that, despite the jibes, you really do "get it." :D
     
  4. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    OK, boomer ;)

    Yes. And that's why Union is such a significant page in DL history. Note, however, how SHU program comes from a disciplinary, AACSB-accredited department. You got your degree in Religion and Law from a school that doesn't have a department of Religion, or a seminary, or a law school. Yes, yes yes, Union's unique learner-centered approach made it what it was back in the day - but it also meant you have same degree as Garry Null, a quack who poisoned himself with his own patented vitamin preparation. It also lead Union into trouble with Ohio Board of Regents - specifically citing weaknesses in doctoral rigor. A traditional academic can, if so inclined, dismiss your degree as "Mickey Mouse" - and many do. Rumor has it some Union learners even managed to earn their degrees - gasp! - in just two years part-time ;).

    Seriously though, trying to earn an accredited advanced degree while working full time is worthy of respect. Let's all remember that.
     
    CT2389 and Maxwell_Smart like this.
  5. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Some career tracks seem like a lock. You get the right degree and you'll never be unemployed. If you actually know what you're doing you'll advance. If you've got some people skills, all the better. Becoming a full-time tenured university instructor is not one of those careers. Everything we know indicates that it's extremely competitive. There are lots of those DBA programs around these days. They're all pumping out people who want to teach. Some, like you, want to go full-time. Some just want a few adjunct courses here and there. Either way the odds are not great. Still, somebody's got to get the job, right? So why not you? I don't know. It's all OK with me. But if you're actually serious about this then you need to begin making some very pragmatic decisions. Sacred Heart is a nice little school. Expensive though. Maybe the money is OK but, let's face it, it's not exactly a nationally known school. And that thing in Paris, where is that coming from? You can come up with a better choice than that. There are only a few non-US schools that will help you and that's not one of them. If you're determined to go through with it then be sure you go in with your eyes open. What that means to me is that you need to have a Plan B if your doctoral degree doesn't get you that teaching job. Otherwise it could all be for nothing. Also, I'll point out that the odds shift substantially in your favor if you are willing to relocate. Do your homework and good luck
     
  6. CT2389

    CT2389 New Member

    Thank you for taking the time to give me advice, Sacred Heart is allowing me to Adjunct teach as well which I think is great.
     
  7. CT2389

    CT2389 New Member

    Thank you! I think you forgot I already work in the Finance Industry lol, Plan B is keep doing what I am doing.
     
  8. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    I didn't forget. I just assumed that you weren't going to spend 4-6 years and thousands of dollars just to keep doing what you're doing now. Wastefulness. Better to spend your time and energy advancing at work or coaching your kids little league team. Opportunity cost, ya know?
     
  9. CT2389

    CT2389 New Member

    ooo of course! That makes total sense, my goal is to transition slowly into academia. Seems to me a DBA makes sense for my situation, even though there are no guarantees of successfully transitioning.
     
  10. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    I hope it works out exactly as you plan. Good luck.
     
  11. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    It's not that a PhD isn't preferable. However, SHU program is US-based, AACSB, and in Finance; I can't think of a PhD program that's all that off the top of my head. Dr. Anthony Pina, who posts here, published two papers on how a DBA 1) is a viable credential for teaching business and 2) has little or no discernible differences from a range of PhD programs.

    Personally, I like your chances. Someone fairly young, with solid quantitative background, in an in-demand specialization, and willing to go beyond just getting a degree has a fighting chance. Keep in mind that most applicants do not graduate, let alone find jobs; there's always a risk to wash out. It has been said here that if one was willing to just quit one's job and earn aa AACSB PhD in Finance or Accounting traditionally, and was fairly geographically flexible, a job somewhere would be all but guaranteed. Perhaps think of that? Failed that - do as close an approximation of a traditional career as possible. Graduate, teach, publish, apply. If you are tied to a city or a region - that might pose a problem; in this case, try to get yourself known to a program that might hire you (but don't put ALL eggs into one basket; I did just that last year and got screwed).
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This advances my point and I agree with it completely.

    Can you use a degree earned nontraditionally to secure an academic position? Sure, but not the usual way of applying for open faculty positions. You'll have to develop a relationship with a school that really, really wants to hire you, with the doctorate being a formality that doesn't prevent them from doing it.

    Mid-30's might be too old. But it also might be too young. What would you have to offer that would interest a university in making a nontraditional hire of you? (That's an honest question.)

    With all my credentials and experience, I can't imagine trying to go the traditional academic hiring route. I wouldn't stand a chance.
     
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    It's not being negative. It's being real. You're offering nothing but opinion--ungrounded, uninformed opinion. You're not helping anyone with that.
     
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm not going to leave this bigoted comment alone.

    Really? Stuck in the '70s? I was 20 when the '70s ended. And "stuck"? I earned my first bachelor's degree in the '80s (when I was 20) and my last doctorate in 2015 (when I was 55). You should be so "stuck."
     
  15. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    Okay, boomer.
    (I thought I'd say it before Chris does.) :emoji_grin:

    (I never thought I'd get to an age at which I would consider Rich a youngster. A note for long-timers: Remember how Uncle Janko had us convinced he was a crochety old fart? Then, when he unexpectedly died and we found out he was only 50, our reaction was like, "Holy shit...")
     
  16. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I work in Academia at an AACSB accredited business school as full time faculty. Most people that enter academia nowadays take a full time residential program (5 year) program at a top school and many get post doc positions for several year before landing a tenure position. Getting hired for a tenure track position at an AACSB accredited normally means that the person has to convince 3 hiring committees, dean, etc that he or she is the best for the job. It is not getting a job as an engineer or an accountant where normally one or two people make the decision, here you need to convince a bunch of people with PhDs from top schools that you are the best for the job. The trend in the market is to graduate more PhDs and hire less tenure tracks so the reality is that getting this type of job is getting more difficult (check stats if you don't believe us) .

    As people that are hiring you come from traditional schools, they will not look favorable a candidate that took an online program.
    Most of the graduates of these part time online programs end teaching as adjuncts either at similar schools (e.g. Walden, Capella) etc or working full time but in non tenure track positions at for profit schools or at CC or small universities where the DBA is a cherry on the cake but not a requirement.

    I agree that with negativity you cannot go far but also the OP is asking for advise that is realistic. These programs are not cheap (50K+) so the OP might be thinking that maybe is better to invest this money in a retirement fund rather than getting a piece a paper that only serves to be called DR with no extra pay.

    AACSB salary stats might be part of the problem, the stats show that salaries at AACSBS start in the 100 K range and claim that there is a shortage of qualified people. What they don't tell you is that there is a shortage because they all want people from top schools and with publications in top journals. There is a shortage of DBA Harvard graduates, this is the real problem.

    I totally understand the view of the OP, let's invest in an online program and maybe land a job that pays 100K+ while having summers off and screw this office job that asks me to travel, work over time, etc. The DBA looks like a good option but the catch is that these programs are supposed to be for professional advancement but in practice very few firms are looking for DBA graduates and willing to pay you more because the DBA title so academia looks like a better option.
     
  17. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    On applying for open faculty positions - it doesn't hurt to try.
     
  18. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  19. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I believe Dr. Levicoff is in Philosophy and Religion and Dr. Douglas in HR. Some fields like Finance and Accounting indeed have much better prospects than Philosophy and Religion when it comes to academia. As many small schools are not able to fill positions in Accounting and Finance due to lower salaries compared to industry, I believe that a DBA from SHU with a good MS in Finance might do well for some small universities. Some schools pay around 40 to 50K for a finance professor, most people in industry make at least double that so I can see good prospects for this area.

    Good luck in your DBA and hope to see you soon teaching full time.
     
  20. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Dr. Douglas can easily qualify for a clinical professor job that requires industrial experience. Clinical professors normally get hired more for their professional achievement. Two doctorates and tons of experience would do the job for this position but I think he is not interested.
     

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