Cal Coast to begin three doctoral programs

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by JWC, Jan 16, 2010.

  1. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Thousands of doctorally trained individuals have already been hired for academic and research positions. It's not tremendously difficult to observe the kind of education that employers have sought, and then make a judgement about whether particular doctoral programs are likely to provide it. That should be a major consideration in initially choosing a doctoral program, I would think.

    The fact that a doctoral program is new doesn't change that. New programs still need to display some intellectual vitality and scholarly engagement if their early graduates have any hope of being competitive.

    Here's a doctoral program, technically 'NA', that received its accredition on Nov. 17, 2009.

    Here's just one of their countless research groups, chosen at random.

    Here's the most impressive California-approved doctoral school, which isn't even a candidate with WASC yet. (That's coming soon, no doubt.)

    One of its research activities, operated in collaboration with UC San Diego and funded by the National Institutes of Health.

    Some of its faculty have won prestigious prizes.

    I probably should point out that both of these doctoral programs are not only tuition free, they actually pay their students to attend them. Of course they are extremely selective.

    The two examples of brand new non-RA doctoral programs that I linked to above are both strong out of the gate precisely because they were up to speed before they ever thought of awarding a doctoral degree. They were research institutions first, then degree grantors second. The DETC schools approach things from the opposite direction, awarding doctoral diplomas first, then maybe, sometime, hopefully, putting things together to support it. That's what makes them comparatively weak doctoral programs. That will continue until DETC raises its expectations and picks up its stick.
  2. Hill

    Hill New Member

    It`s complicated comparing fulltime academic research doctorates programs with residency, and DL doctorate programs designed for adults working full time elswhere. Two different concepts.

    Which program is weak or strong, NA og RA, high or low in status, depends on its purpose, application and perception of self acheivement, as discussed so many times before.

    In my view, a variety of doctorate programs is a good thing for society as a whole, as long as they are accredited. It provides flexibility within a system, and may spur development and meet the needs of many. This is more important than ever before, and probably one of the reasons why DL has increased so much in general.
  3. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Again, the doctorate is for teaching and research in higher education.

    DETC-accredited doctorates are currently not acceptable for attaining such positions, so they have almost no utility outside the content of the degree and whatever research skills are attained. Zilch. Nada.

    Now, for an opinion: it is remotely possible that some DETC-accredited doctorates will eventually attain some level of acceptability, but that is in the future and seemingly very unlikely.

    Finally, some advice for the reader: if you are serious about earning a doctorate, exhaust all your possibilities for earning a regionally-accredited doctorate, such as borrowing money or selling your house, before spending your time earning a doctorate that will not be accepted as a doctorate for its primary function: teaching and research in higher education.
  4. simon

    simon New Member

    I need to elucidate my previous statements. It is obvious that graduates from DETC doctoral programs will not lead to prolific academic researchers who will enter academia spending the majority of their time in the pursuit of research activity.

    However, as noted in my previous posts we cannot make any credible predictions as to the viability/utility of doctorates from DETC accredited schools within academia (I did not say in academic research positions but was referring to certain teaching positions) because there have not been any graduates of these programs and we have no data from which to draw these conclusions. In fact I do not rule out the possibility that certain graduates will use this degree for teaching positions they currently hold in community and certain RA colleges/universities in order to bolster their academic credentials as well as others who aspire for such positions that do not require research backgrounds.
  5. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    It was my mistake the university my friend graduated from was Argosy University and not Aspen.

    I will be careful next time.
  6. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Will DETC Doctorate be helpful lets say for a person who wants to become a principle of a school?
  7. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    There are changes in the air in the way the system works.
    Current administration is about to get in to Student Loan control.
    I see increased governmental control over funds and eventually over universities.

    How this will affect RA/NA situation is yet to be seen.
  8. simon

    simon New Member

    Primarily, you should determine the specific requirements for the position of principal that is indicated by your state/city school board because a doctorate may not be a requirement for this position. IF it is required then you need to determine whether the school board would accept a DETC accredited doctorate in lieu of one from a regionally accredited institution.
  9. emmzee

    emmzee New Member

    I wonder (and I am asking because I honestly don't know) are DETC doctorates like Cal Coast accepted to teach at DETC institutions? If so, a DETC doctoral graduate, while limited in where they could apply their degree, would at least be able to teach at DETC accredited schools and other NA schools (ACICS, etc)?

    I mean someone with a TRACS doctorate would have a tough time getting accepted to teach at an ATS seminary but they would at least be accepted to teach at another TRACS school, I would think?
  10. japhy4529

    japhy4529 House Bassist

    What about people who are looking at a doctorate for promotional opportunities at work, or for other opportunities outside of their present place of employment? Perhaps a DETC doctorate would help land someone a government job.
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Cheeky. But irrelevant. The main point of the discussion isn't about the quality of the degrees in question, but of their utility.

    (BTW, Steve Levicoff and I were two of Union's harshest critics--at least, among those who offered any facts. Or weren't you reading it all back then?)
  12. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

    The DETC opponents on here made the same accusations when the DETC branched out to include accrediting the Master degrees. Now the same thing with professional doctorates.

    Bill and Dave - the professional doctorate as you both know or should know are not the same intensive research degree as the Ph D. Professionals who go for the professional doctorate usually do not have the goal of becoming researchers or college professors with requirements to conduct research. The professionals wishing to obtain a professional doctorate in business, psychology, occupational therapy, physical therapy, pharmacy, law, education, public health, health care administration and on generally do so to advance their knowledge in a very specific way in their discipline. There are quite a few agencies that require a doctorate for certain positions in administrative positions. Those individuals who have taken the time and put in the effort to complete such degrees are an indicator these people are very capable and may be at a caliber greater than other applicants. There is research required in the professional doctorate degrees too. Some professional doctorates do require the testing of the hypothesis.

    Given what you are saying, any professional doctorate, including those offered at the regional schools are not suitable for anything. I actually look upon the professional doctorates as suitable for specifics careers vs. a Ph D. To me, a Ph D is for researchers and those who wish to make a career in research. The DETC doctorates serve a very specific role for professionals and are not for those who want to be involved in ongoing research studies. We need both types of degrees.

    I am very happy the DETC can accredit professional doctorates. And of course, every one is entitled to his or her own opinion.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2010
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    "Accusations" is perjorative. No one is accusing anyone of anything. And it's funny you should cite precedent, for it is that very example that I rely upon when I say that a doctorate from a DETC-accredited school is very much less than average in terms of utility and acceptance. Thank you.
  14. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    There seems to be a mixing up of "professional doctorate" with "first professional degree," probably because most of the latter have had their titles changed to "doctor over the years". First professional degrees (medicine, law, occupational therapy, physical therapy, pharmacy, podiatry, veterinary medicine, dentistry, etc.) are designated as the entry degrees for these professions. People enter into these degrees directly from the bachelors and if they decide to get a masters, they do so after earning a first professional degree.

    A "professional doctorate," such as those in business and education tend to be research doctorates structured identically to the PhD. These degrees are achieved after the masters degrees and require research dissertations. they are "professional" in the sense that they are administered by the professional college (e.g. college of business, college of education) within a university, rather than by the graduate college or college of arts and sciences. According to the U.S. Department of Education, these degrees are research degrees, equivalent to the PhD. Outside the U.S., these degrees tend to be different than the PhD.

    The lack of knowledge (and consistency) of definitions between the first professional, professional, and research doctorates has been used to good measure by R.A. universities that wanted to offer doctorates and were able to claim (successfully) that their DBAs and EdD were "different" than the PhD and did not constitute competition to PhD programs. The argument is bogus, but legislators (who also don't know the similarities and differences between the degrees) approved them. It worked for the Cal State system, that now can offer its own doctorates, so I do not blame the DETC and CCU for using the same successful argument.
  15. simon

    simon New Member

    However, what is inferred by the incessant reminders of their lack of utility is their lack of quality!

    BTW, it is irrelevant whether you and Levicoff are your alma mater's harshest critics because my main point was that the "Name it and Frame" doctorates that were awarded to numerous students over a period of many years resulted in significant damage to the academic reputation of this graduate school. Just a fact to keep in mind when making denigrating statements of DETC doctorates without any substantive data to support such criticism. In fact there have been virtually no graduates of these programs to provide us with objective feedback regarding the academic rigor of these degrees as well as some idea of their utility in the world of work.
  16. simon

    simon New Member

    And once again to remind you of the "Name it and frame it" doctoral degrees that in spite of their RA status continue to raise serious questions in the minds of many, including those in academia, as to their utility and acceptance. For instance can you cite some examples of the major research that you and levicoff have produced and contributed since your graduation? I would love to hear about it.

    As noted in previous posts there is no way anyone can predict the level of receptivity and utility of DETC doctoral degrees at this time because there have virtually been no graduates of these programs and absolutely no feedback pertaining to their level of credibility and viability. So to prematurely conclude that they are very much less than average in terms of utility and acceptance is merely an indication of bias against DETC and their degrees. No more, no less.
  17. major56

    major56 Active Member

    Personally I'm really not too concerned about the countless presumption/s regarding RA vs. NA, which has better /less utility, etc.; conversely, in that to date there have been NO doctorial degrees awarded thus far that are DETC accredited; so how do you plausibly make your precedent regarding the assertion of "... very much less than average in utility and acceptance" of the NA /DETC accredited doctorate credible? Are you merely taking your previous research and broadening your earlier hypothesis, and/or findings to now also encompass, in this case, the DETC terminal degree level, even though none have yet been awarded or exist; and without prior reliable researchable data availability or actual up-to-date findings? Have you already established your personal mind-set pertaining to a chosen position seemingly well ahead of accessible /researchable data? Or does one area of earlier investigation (re your previous concentration in higher education and a specialization in nontraditional higher education) also now objectively apply relevance to present non-existing (e.g., explicitly DETC professional doctorate degrees) and a non-formally researched area? I believe regards this specific subject – at present you can plausibly offer your personal estimation – not researched based fact; and that’s subjective but harmless. Please just recognize and release it as such.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2010
  18. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Some of the comments here are becoming increasingly snarky and it would be nice if this could be avoided.

    I think that we all recognize and enjoy the fact that distance learning has become and continues to become more acceptable in general and in the workplace. While no one questions the conclusions of Dr. Douglas' research, it's not unreasonable to wonder if the conclusions reached back then still hold true today. In an environment that is as dynamic as that of distance learning, one can not reasonably expect to forever point backwards to aging research as an indicator of current reality. My own view, based on nothing more than the careful monitoring of several distance learning discussion boards (for whatever that's worth) is that for most intents and purposes, the gap between NA and RA has narrowed over the course of the past 5 years. More RA schools are accepting NA credits. There is a new set of NA doctoral degrees, not just from CCU but other schools as well. I'm guessing that in the end they'll all merge and the blurring will be complete and final.
  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I think after so many years monitoring DL discussions we still see people group schools only by their accreditation. That's simply wrong.

    Only because the school shares the same level of accreditation be it RA or NA
    it doesn't make it equal to the other school.

    One RA university can be with history of fine research, produced many scholars and contributed to the world of science, wile the other university grants credit for testing out and getting degree in 6 months or so.

    I accept Michael's Lambert 70% mark for the acceptance of DETC credit transfer, in my view especially by for profit RA's.
    They have more liberal acceptance and transfer credit criteria.

    I think also ITT NA accredited institute produces very good professionals, I had the honor to work with some.
    They are professionals with great skills. Many IT departments would love such employees.
    Retheon on other hand would like to hire design engineers with RA, ABET accredited degrees ONLY.
    Yet in their IT and non R&D departments they do hire NA degrees Engineers.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2010
  20. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    Research is really about contributing to the growth in knowledge and, in particular, obtaining dissemination of that knowledge via publication in peer reviewed journals. If you have the skills and can get published regularly in the above mentioned journals, I wonder how relevent the accreditation of RA or NA will be?

    The school may be less important and eclipsed by the weight of publications. The academic and/or professional journals acknowledge the research credibility of the individual's article by the peer review process. Continued acknowledgement by a number of publications will surely over ride concerns about the school where the degree was earned. The good news about a credible peer review process is that the details of the article's author is not given to the reviewers. The work is judged on its worth, not the university the author went to.

    Conference presentations, coupled being published as part of conference proceedings, again will serve the degree holder. I recommend that all distance learners attempt to present at conferences to build networks and over ride the concerns about the lack of academic interaction that some argue applies to distance learning. Conferences and publishing may the route to allay concerns about NA or RA accreditation that seems to dominate the debate in the US. I suspect that it may over ride any discrimination that exists in respect of distance learning as well. This discrimination appears, from this board, to hold for both RA or NA distance learners.

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