Cal Coast to begin three doctoral programs

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by JWC, Jan 16, 2010.

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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This is a lie. At no time in this thread or any other have I made such a comparison.
    This, too, is a lie. I didn't make that assertion. Others may have, but not me. I don't insist that RA programs are superior (although, by all evidence, they are). I insist that the degrees issued by RA schools are remarkably more utile. Distorting my statements is the same as lying. You're obviously doing it on purpose.
    Again, based on a lie you created. I didn't say it.
    Not true. MIGS presented itself as having an agreement with the CEU to offer instruction upon which the CEU would award its degrees. The CEU was and is a recognized tertiary institution. Many people were fooled by this, not just me.

    Interesting you would introduce an irrelevant tangent into this discussion, and to misrepresent it. This sounds awfully personal to you. What is your connection to one or more DETC-accredited schools?
    Wrong again. What I said then was that I didn't think NCU would get accredited without introducing a residency requirement to its doctoral programs. No free-standing school had ever done it. They did. And they remain the only one, except for TUI, which was first accredited under Touro College's accreditation.

    And what would any of this prove? That I've been wrong a few times in more than a decade of posting on boards like this? I've posted at least 15,000 times. No kidding that I might get a few things wrong. But what I've posted about DETC is fact, not opinion or prediction. Grow a pair and prove me wrong instead of these petty personal attacks.
    Plenty of data available; you choose to ignore it. You also choose to ignore my request to back up your charge of bias.
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Yup. I agree, too. And they'll be largely useless in the traditional uses of the doctorate: academia and the licensed professions. But DETC shills absolutely hate this distinction, so they whine.
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Really? How many schools would, right now, reject applicants with doctorates from DETC accredited schools? We might not know the exact number, but all the anecdotes we hear indicate that they would be useless in a great number of situations.

    "Grain of salt." Geez. :rolleyes: Either add something or don't, but that sounds stupid.
     
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    As usual, DETC apologists remain:

    --anonymous
    --unfettered by evidence
    --desparate in their denial of the lessened utility of their degrees because of DETC accreditation
    --they turn to ad hominems, substituting an argument for a fight.

    It always ends up like this and nothing changes. And now that it has again gotten personal, I'll pass.
     
  5. BryanOats

    BryanOats New Member


    Rich,

    You call other posters whiners and that what they have to say are lies and stupid and then you have the nerve to complain its getting personal. Look at yourself man! Every time this subject comes up you get and take it very personal.

    Stop crying and prove your points with solid evidence and then shut up while the rest of us enjoy the debate.
     
  6. vadro

    vadro New Member

    Very well said, Dr. Pina.
     
  7. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

    Anthony -

    I really got a lot out of your posting on the variations of the doctorates. Thank you. I still believe that the DETC is ok in accrediting the types of doctorates it is accrediting. CalSouthern does require research for the DBA and PSYD. The student has to defend his or her research via face to face webinar with the dissertation committee. I know you are at a regionally accredited school and protecting your territory, that's ok with me. But, I am open minded and try not to jump to conclusions. Calsouthern has invested a lot of time and effort into making their doctorates quality programs. They have done a lot of upgrades and even are starting to take lead in some areas in distance learning, i.e. face to face supervision via web cam with practicum students in the field who may be in remote places where there are no supervisors to provided this needed service. They even require the doctorate students to go through 24 or 40 hours of personal therapy before getting to far into the program. This helps assess the psychological status of the student before moving through the program and also helps the student understand him or her self.

    By human nature, most folks look for what's wrong or broken and not to what is working and how to make it work better. This is one issue I have with the human race. Most are always trying to pull others down instead of helping them up. No, I am not a liberal. I am an independent republican.
     
  8. simon

    simon New Member

    Douglas: This is a lie. At no time in this thread or any other have I made such a comparison.

    This, too, is a lie. I didn't make that assertion. Others may have, but not me. I don't insist that RA programs are superior (although, by all evidence, they are). I insist that the degrees issued by RA schools are remarkably more utile. Distorting my statements is the same as lying. You're obviously doing it on purpose.

    Again, based on a lie you created. I didn't say it.

    Simon: I see. Everything I say is a "lie". Of course you didn't make that assertion; you merely infer it in every post by your denigrating comparisons with RA degree programs. And of course I am distorting everything you say by intentionally toning down your actual level of antipathy and disdain towards DETC schools without any basis but your need to feel superior to others. Based on your previous erroneous opinions and predictions I wouldn't count on your being correct regarding the future utility and acceptability of DETC doctoral programs either.

    Douglas: Not true. MIGS presented itself as having an agreement with the CEU to offer instruction upon which the CEU would award its degrees. The CEU was and is a recognized tertiary institution. Many people were fooled by this, not just me.

    Simon: Oh now I am not lying merely making untrue statements. My friend I was on the forum where I witnessed your vehement defense of MIGS including your taking combative stands against numerous posters who disagreed with your shilling for this unaccredited "school".

    Douglas: Interesting you would introduce an irrelevant tangent into this discussion, and to misrepresent it. This sounds awfully personal to you. What is your connection to one or more DETC-accredited schools?

    Simon: Another defensive ploy utilized by Douglas by falsely alleging that posters who oppose his views are connected to one or more DETC accredited schools anytime he is held accountable for his actions and positions.

    Douglas: Wrong again. What I said then was that I didn't think NCU would get accredited without introducing a residency requirement to its doctoral programs. No free-standing school had ever done it. They did. And they remain the only one, except for TUI, which was first accredited under Touro College's accreditation.

    Simon: First I am lying, than not telling the truth and now I am just plain wrong. In fact I was also present when you adamantly held that NCU would not obtain regional accreditation. End of story.

    Douglas: And what would any of this prove? That I've been wrong a few times in more than a decade of posting on boards like this? I've posted at least 15,000 times. No kidding that I might get a few things wrong. But what I've posted about DETC is fact, not opinion or prediction. Grow a pair and prove me wrong instead of these petty personal attacks.

    Simon: Only a "few times"? No my friend, a number of other times but I merely presented a few examples of some of the more blatant ones that reveal you were off course. Oh, by the way my requesting that you provide examples of your scholarly research and your failure to do so is very telling and by no means constitutes a personal attack on my part. In fact it is an attempt to provide you with an opportunity to show us the ways your RA doctoral degree program from "the name it and Frame" school is superior to the new DETC doctoral programs that do not over-emphasize scholarly research. So in fact you have no post graduation scholarly research to prove your point. Very revealing.

    Douglas: Plenty of data available; you choose to ignore it. You also choose to ignore my request to back up your charge of bias.[/QUOTE]

    Simon: Oh we have all the data we need to conclude that many of your alleged so-called authoritative opinions, predictions and perspectives are not based on factual data or critical thinking but on subjective beliefs that are self-serving. Just an observation.
     
  9. simon

    simon New Member

    You are correct Robbie. SCU's new Psy.D program is not a shortcut academic program to obtaining a doctoral degree in Psychology but requires a great deal of academic work including research courses, a final project, practicums and for some seeking licensure, an internship. Although SCU's literature indicates that it is possible to complete this degree within two years, based on SCU's experience the average time to completion of this doctorate will be three and a half years, by no means a shoe-in doctoral program.
     
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    As I said, I'm done.
     
  11. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    DETC's cause would be best served, not by inciting emotion-filled flame-wars and by desperately trying to change the subject to critics' personalities, but by calm and persuasive evidence of scholarship and even some intellectual excitement in the better DETC programs.

    If DETC doctoral programs expect to be competitive alongside existing (overwhelmingly RA) doctoral programs, then they are inevitably going to be judged by the same criteria. It's just a law of nature.

    DETC successfully demanded that it's schools be allowed to play in the big (doctoral) leagues. So now they are going to have to play alongside the steroid-filled sluggers at the research universities. That's how the game is scored.
     
  12. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Short answer: No.

    Long answer: Some day in the future I could foresee a situation in which the holder of DETC-accredited doctorate in education also had many useful experiences and abilities. This person would be able to get the attention of the superintendent and school board long enough for them to see the value of the DETC-accredited doctorate. Moreover, this hypothetical person would have such a strong background that they would also be able to fend off sniper attacks from colleagues who challenged their doctorate / preparation for the job of principal. Still, this is all hypothetical and only a masters degree is really required to serve as a principal, so the long answer is maybe yes, and the odds of the DETC-doctorate helping are better than winning the lottery.
     
  13. simon

    simon New Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2010
  14. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    I don't have any problem at all with California Southern. It is a legally operating school accredited by a recognized agency. I am on the advisory council for a nationally accredited (ACICS) colleges. Yes, I am an administrator at an RA university but I can say that I have never shilled for my institution, nor have I felt the need to "protect my territory" (I'm not sure that I have a "territory" per se).

    CCU is certainly free to offer whatever degrees that its accrediting body and state permit. It is certainly fair for people to point out that there are certain areas where holders of the degree may find it difficult to gain acceptance and careers. The same has been true for RA online programs. Acceptance of these degrees has increased steadily and I expect that the same will hold true for NA doctorates. My problem with DETC has been that its website has often contained contrdictory informaiton about what types of degrees it will and will not accredit, but that is just a lack of organization on DETC's part. DETC has also not been clear on the distinction between first professional degrees and professional (research-based) doctorates. A DBA or EdD is a different type of degree than a JD, MD, PharmD, DDS, DVM, etc.
     
  15. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

    Hi Anthony -

    You have some great insights and information even if I don't 100% agree with all of it in past posts. But this one I do. I am glad to read your expertise in this area in regards to the various types of doctorates. I thought I read in the DETCs new regs on doctorates that a research component had to be part of the course with a dissertation committee to challenge the student. Calsouthern has a more strict time frame with completing courses and getting assignments in on time or you get a goose egg if you don't. Their online courses are very similar to the ones I completed at the graduate level online with UNC CH. The only differences were we had group activities/assignments, especially in biostatistics. We were assigned to groups and each had to contribute to a semester long study and one person would synthesize all of the information and put in the report. And, yep, it was me who ended up doing it. The traditional semester start dates afforded the courses at UNC CH to have a lot of students in one course at one time so we did articulate through at the same pace. If you didn't, you fell behind. I think Calsouthern has taken on some of this way of thinking about the group work. We did have some assignments where each student posted comments and reactions to topics in a few courses. It was great. And with the webcams now, it is actually like being in the classroom with them when you schedule yourself to be on when the others are. That is the most difficult part though. So many time zones. Weekends generally work better. Anyway, thanks Anthony for your input. You gave me some understanding to the various doctorates I didn't have before. You are a good man.

    Robbie
     
  16. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Thank you, Robbie, you are very kind. And thank you for the insights on California Southern U. One of the great things about Degreeinfo is that people with different experience, expertise (and biases) can interact here. I get great insights and up-to-the-minute news and commentary that are useful to me as a professional in the fiedl of distance learning. If there are things that I can post that others find useful, then it makes my time on Degreeinfo worth it. According the the U.S. Dept. of Education and the National Science Foundation, EdDs, DBAs and DPAs are research doctorates that require dissertations, while JDs, MDs, PharmDs, DDS/DMD, DVM, DPM, etc. are first professional degrees that do not require dissertations. I would expect Cal Coast's doctoral degrees to require dissertations.
     
  17. yarsoc

    yarsoc New Member

    Is the info about California Coast legitimate? Has DETC really approved them for doctoral degrees in Education?
     
  18. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator Staff Member

    Well they are listed here but not here. Interesting question. Maybe DETC did not update their site?
     
  19. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Interesting new news... Oh, wait, this is old news.
     
  20. ELIAS

    ELIAS New Member

    Phd utility

    I can see both sides of the argument. However, I do not have any data to make a valid professional and educated opinion on this matter.

    I do know one thing for sure. When I was in the Marine Corps. I knew one of my fellow Sergeants who was attending an DETC school for his B.S. correspondence. This Sergeant had over eight years of service. He took the indoctrination test for Force Reconnaissance and made it due to his will of not giving up. In other words he drowned during the swimming test and coughed up all the water after a few assisted breaths. Needless to say he made it and last I heard about him years later before I left the CORPS. He made it to OCS Officer Candidate School and became an Officer of the worlds finest. In addition to his experience there are countless of higher level officers who take graduate and post graduate programs in order to maintain competitive in the promotion ranks from DETC programs and of course RA.

    My only concern is that in academia you have a great divide that is not seen in the Military for purpose of utility. A DBA/PHD in education, business etc will serve as a great asset for that individual and the organization. The military does have education programs that are not DETC RA accredited and are rigorous for that matter. Those of you who have served in the military or worked for high level government security jobs know exactly what I mean.

    Let's say for instance OCS which does take applicants/Recruits from RA schools, some of those applicant can't handle the course and therefore drop or get dropped others squeeze by and make it to a duty station with their butter bars (2ND LIEUTENANT RANK) and are the Officer in Charge of a unit or section, while they are running the shop some are so wet behind the ears that a private or corporal can run the shop for them due to experience in the fleet. I am not saying that RA are bad schools or do not have academic quality, what I am saying is that both DETC/RA have their utility, and to say that DETC is the low grade would be undermining the ambition and efforts of the men and women in uniform not just the military, but local, state, federal government law enforcement, and administrative workers. There are host of federal jobs that take JD, PHD's from accredited schools both RA/DETC that have research based, and instructional based duties for the job description.

    DETC/RA accreditation does not have any bearing on how the individual will perform the duties or utilize the degree. In my experience while serving in the military, I can say that some of those butter bars that came in from RA schools who had frat houses etc were overpaid, over ranked and last but not least immature to hold the rank. Some not all, I did serve under a host of amazing and great Officers who were men and women of good character from both RA/DETC schools.

    Now, we all have read in this forum the requirements for detc schools and programs. These programs are for individual who are accountable, self starters, and most of all motivated to learn and apply their educational backgrounds at their place of work. It is like a unique group of individuals those who see the great value of what education is all about. I am wondering since the foundation of human education in our society, and I do not mean the U.S., does it really matter, fundamentally if our education comes from a regional or detc accredited body. Just a thought. I can truly understand both sides of the argument with regards the PHD utility.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2018

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