Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by JWC, Jan 16, 2010.
I would like to give you a proper reference via a link, but that reference has been removed from this site as part of the policing process and so I can't link to the thread in which it existed. The just of it was the University of Guelph, their DL program in the 3500 sector and it was a Tourism course with absolutely no classes, no professor, no contact with fellow students or curriculum outline. That's a lot to be missing! You wrote two papers, got your grades and hoped you were on topic. From a school of that caliber, this is not acceptable and surely ranks well under the quality of many DETC school offerings today.
Note (little help here):
Should admin decide to practice freedom of speech here, the thread might find it's way back to the board, but I won't hold my breath on that one! LOL
While I have not taken 100 DL courses, I have taken 67 from 8 schools (38 RA courses from 7 RA schools). So I would not pretend to know the answers but I think I have some....
I am not saying one is better or worst then the other. I just can't understand how the fact that you feel DETC has value (which I agree) equals RA schools "pump out garbage". Should all DL students only go to DETC schools and all on campus students only go to RA schools??
You are probably in a much better position then most posters here to talk about your experiences on either side of this topic. I would like to hear more from you regarding RA versus DETC course structure and so forth. I know Richard would like to learn more about this too as he has requested help in this area, in his prior post.
I have a similar background to yours accept I haven't taken a DETC course, I have several degrees, with a similar count pertaining to RA schools and DL course load. I have witnessed firsthand, the disparity in quality programs within each school, course and structure. There simply isn't any form of consistency in their program makeup, to the point that you can be cheated out of an education by some RA schools of well-known stature. Accreditation does not assure students in RA schools of a respectable DL education. If I use the same reasoning/approach as Richard to support my claims, then I can conclude too, that DETC schools may well be better qualified to present DL simply because RA schools are in some cases, doing a terrible job of it, despite accreditation. They have no standards in which to operate by, apparently.
If you really want to see that reference again I'll provide you with it, I'm not going to go to all of that work only to have the admin police remove it for no apparent reason.
Thanks for your comments.
WOW! I had no idea you were so prolific on this board! I just noticed your post count and you are definitely in a race with Richard here. I have been a member of this site for a few years now but I apparently have little production in the message arena.
Hell, you must have a high sperm count too! Crazy amount of information, thanks.
I'm slowly working my way through all of this thread, nice to see things getting stirred up a bit around here!
First, I have taken classes at CCU (before they were DETC), and 8 RA schools (not 7): 5 tradionally B&M schools with a DL component, 2 DL schools, and UoP and I am not sure where you want to place them
My CCU experience was great. All tests were multiple choices, some were 100 questions and some were 200, but were really hard. It was not just an exercise to “find the answer”. I ended up retaking two classes for the MBA program to get my GPA up to over a 3.0 to graduate. I called my sister-in-law (an attorney) a few times to get help with the Business Law classes and my sister (an accountant) about 25-30 times to get help with the accounting classes. I had to fax the page from the test to my sister for her to read the questions to help me. It was really hard. This was only one experience at one school. These were undergraduate and graduate classes.
Now, as far as RA schools, here is my experience from a few. One was really simple and on the first day I was given a mid-term and a final exam with six questions each. I was told to turn in the mid-term by XX date and the final by XX date. That was it and it was a local community college. Now this was just one of the classes I took there. The other online class from the same school required weekly emails to the instructor and the use of Blackboard and a real final exam. These were 200 level classes.
Another community college had an orientation at the school, the courses were broadcast on TV, and there was a mid term and final at the school. Not too easy but not too hard. This was a 100 level class.
At UF, the classes I took for the certificate program (which was new) were really hard with essays and a timed final that covered the whole book. The answers could not be found word for word in the book but were conceptual so you really had to know the material. When I went back for the MS program, which was an expansion of the certificate, it got even harder and more demanding. The requirements were:
Attend two Elluminate live lectures per week(one on Sunday evening and one on Wednesday evening and they are 90 minutes each)
Read about 60 pages in the text per week
Post two discussion questions relevant to the reading per week
Respond to three other students’ questions per week
Watch two video that are posted on the UF E-Learning System (60 minutes each) per week
Answer five homework questions per week. Each response should be a minimum of one paragraph referencing the reading material.
A mid term and final exam.
These were graduate level classes.
At another RA school there were ten papers to be submitted and a proctored mid-term and final. It was definitely not easy and I barely got by with a C. This was a 100 level class.
As a whole I could not say one is better or worst. By concern/issue/thought with DL programs seems to be the lack of consistency in the delivery and testing. On the other hand, that is what I love about it. I could never set up proctored tests – I travel too much so the paper writing works well for me. I really can not say that RA schools deliver a better or worst DL education, but from my experience they (DETC or "Online" RA schools) have the formatting process down a little better then school that are traditionally B&M trying to expand to the DL world.
I am a little confused or maybe reading something wrong. How can you say one deleivery method or program quality is better or worst when you have not taken any classes other then RA? I would say you can speak on the difference between RA schools but a comparions to something you have never taken...I don't think so.
Did this whole thing just go way off topic? By the way, I started to add up the number of credits I have earned including CLEPs and CCU and I have:
158 lower level, 57 upper level, 161 graduate, for a total of 376 credits. I really need to find a hobby
I would like to see greater improvements in terms of course quality and structure at California Coast (masters), Ashworth (certificate program), and Penn Foster ( Associates ). I currently enrolled as a student at all of these schools. The graduate programs at California Coast (multiple choice tests for graduate level programs and a multiple choice final) and Ashworth ( are very light in terms of rigor. If you were unsatisfied with your tourism course at guelph, you would be displeased with the graduate level coursework at California Coast and the undergrad program at Ashworth. My graduate programs at APUS and Liberty are excellent and I am very pleased with the rigor and access to instructor support.
As you all can see I am a DL addict.
Some DETC programs are more rigorous than others. I have heard very good things about Aspen, Andrew Jackson, and Columbia Southern. One of the reasons I decided to enroll at a DETC accredited school is cost. I wanted to complete an accredited Psych Masters program without having to pay over $1500 per course. It is an ambition I wanted to accomplish for a long time.
I suspect you will find this disparity at any one school let alone between different schools - whether on-line or in class. I've certainly seen it at the several RA and UK schools I've attended.
A huge potential market for a DETC Ed.D. in Ed. Psyc. is the school psychology community. There are somewhere between 15 and 20,000 school psycs. in this country, the vast majority with either an Ed.S. or a 60 hour masters that might be interested in a 100% distance learning doctorate that's relatively low cost. These are individuals already employed and licensed. I would speculate that many sch. psycs would be more interested in the status afforded by a doctorate rather than a pay raise. From my discussions a few years ago with at least one CCU faculty member, I know they are aware of and interested in the school psyc. market. The APA has been pressuring state boards across the country to strip the title "School Psychologist" from all but doctoral practitioners. If they make some headway in this endeavor you can expect a mad rush by thousands of school psychologists to get doctoral training.
I took it as a light-hearted joke, Ted. Sorry to leave the wrong impression.
As for greatness, I can say with all humility and accuracy that it is you who delivers great quality to this board, not I. I am sure I am joined by a great many others who would agree.
Again, sorry for the mix up.
It's all good, Rich.
I agree! (sorry could not resist)
I agree that the DETC Ed.D. in Ed. Psychology from California Coast University could offer tremendous benefit to the school counselors and psychologists in terms of making them better counselors and psychologists.
However, in my opinion, you are kidding yourself and all of us here if you genuinely believe that the APA is going to willingly allow school psychologists to use the doctoral designation with DETC-accredited psychology training!
There are those in the APA who are still arguing that the Psy.D. is not really a doctorate (e.g., trivial, meaningless dissertations and abbreviated research methods) and whether non-APA accredited psychology programs are fraudulent....
Agreed. This program would never fly with the APA for the stated purpose (or any purpose for that matter!).
It could be useful for School Psychologists who want a doctorate but do not need one for licensing/credentialing purposes.
The APA currently has no control over school psychologists who are in most states licensed by state education boards. The psyc. boards in all states except Texas currently have exemptions for school psychologists. The only power the APA has over the situation is the ability to lobby the psyc. licensing boards in the 49 states, encouraging them to eliminate the exemption from board control over the title "school Psychologist." They are currently considering doing just that. However, if they gain some success, and current non-doctoral school psychologists start enrolling in doctoral programs (even DETC doctoral programs) in large numbers, the APA would in my humble opinion have a much harder time convincing state psyc. boards to eliminate the current exemptions for school psycs. By the way, the vast majority of school psychology training programs are not accredited by the APA but by NASP (The National Association of School Psychologists).
Lerner - Great post, I always learn something from your posts. You have a logical way of explaining things and I tend to agree with you.
AviTerra - I stepped into help you and might have made things more difficult for you in the end, sorry if this is the case. Great argument on your part, thanks.
Ted Heiks - you are so funny, if my sister were single I would introduce you!
Richard - Every time you use that dog analogy I laugh, I do think you have the most dogs in this DETC thing, like AviTerra says, perhaps the whole team?
<<The only reason why there is any "debate" on this topic is that DETC advocates continue to argue without facts a point they have a personal interest in.
I don't have a dog in this hunt; I just hate the lies. >>
Well, I don't have any DETC degrees, or courses under my belt or dogs, just two cats, do they count? LIES?? Personal interest?? Come on, you are kidding right? Hope so, otherwise I'm going to have to go back and read all of your other posts.
Dave G - Great post, question, do you think it could ever by possible for DETC schools to provide a passage to academia? I haven't seen any data but I get the impression from Richard that this would be a non-start? He does mention that they are cookie cutter programs today but that a niche market program/degree structure might gain stature within the community, food for thought.
ITJD - I was with you until the final two paragraphs and then your conclusion threw me. I don't have a background in DETC, nothing, I have a reasonable background in RA schooling and know firsthand that some courses in their DL divisions can be absolutely terrible. It pains me to admit that one of those schools is one where I'm a graduate of. Did I make a big mistake earning a degree from a school who much later down the school started producing such junk? They still rank extremely high in the academic community but some of their DL courses do stink. Is this my fault? DETC schools are attractive for cost and convenience, probably some other reasons like a great education. We can't sweep them under the rug simply because a few academic people see little utility in them. Perhaps a list of 100% on line degrees at a comparative price to DETC, with similar convenience, should be constructed to help wayward students find their RA equivalence. Good post.
And now back to our regularly scheduled program (before the thread was hijacked by the my RA wang is bigger than your NA wang)....CCU reports that the programs have indeed been confirmed and approved by the DETC and they will begin enrollment in early February.
To answer directly.
1. "Stink" is not quantitative. It's an opinion.
2. You went to a RA school that is ranking extremely high in the academic community. The school will not let you down if you put it on a CV or resume.
It would be your fault within the context of my original post if you went to a DETC school expecting to convert that wonderful doctorate into a tenured teaching position at a tier one school.
The fact that the online program is less than wonderful in your eyes is irrelevant within the context of my post. I was speaking specifically to the RA and DETC quality debate and the logic problem that is avoided by those who have a strong opinion in favor of DETC. Every school, regardless of accreditation has some program that isn't as wonderful as others at the school.
Well now...that was well said. It is great to think back to the time when many did not think CCU would ever get accreditied. I guess times really are changing!
Really? How so? What possible vested interest could I possibly have? Seriously, in what way could I possibly be affected by the outcome of this matter? Please enlighten me.
Where did you get your information that the APA had a beef against the Psy D? There are many many members of the APA who have Psy Ds. In addition these same people serve on committees and boards. There are quite a few Psy D programs offered at regionally accredited universities. As matter of fact, I have worked with many licensed psychologist who have Psy Ds who have practiced psych in many states.
Separate names with a comma.