Are all unaccredited schools degree mills

A diploma mill is a paper that is given without any requirements but a fee. Diploma mills are given by institutions that don't offer any course work or program of study.

Degree mills are granted by substandard universities or colleges. They are degree mills because they deceive the general public by thinking that they have actually completed a standard program of studies but in fact was earned with much less effort than a standard degree normally demands. This is what some members call "less demanding" degrees.

 

I'll happily change my mind about anything, if somebody can convince me why I should.

I've never tried to tear RJT down. All I do is periodically disagree with him.

I sympathise with your compassion for RJT and with your attempts to defend the underdog. But I think that your criticism is misdirected.

If RJT just wants to study at K-W, fine. I'm currently interested in an institute that not only isn't accredited, it isn't even state-approved. I may be taking some non-accredited classes right along with RJT soon.

But if he wants his choice of K-W validated by Degreeinfo, if he wants to recommend K-W to other prospective students and if he wants to establish state-licensing as the new Degreeinfo standard of DL legitimacy, then he simply has to expect some controversy and disagreement.

That's not attacking him. It's simply refusing to let him set the agenda.

I'd say that if controversy hurts RJT, then he should simply continue doing his thing at K-W and stop spreading controversy here.

I'm not suggesting that he shut up or stop saying his thing. I am saying that if he continues to do so, he needs to expect some disagreement.

 

Most of the time I use the word diploma to describe what a school has given me. I'll continue this habit since it's easier than having to switch back and forth. A degree mill or diploma mill is the school, person, or persons granting degrees, and delivering the diplomas. The mill is the school. In reality a degree/diploma mill doesn't exist. It's just one person, or at most a few people selling diplomas for cash.

 

I agree with you 100%. I would just add this. The discussion should, in my opinion, be about the quality of KW, and not about the motives of RJT. We do not know him or how he decided to choose KW. Difference of opinion is the spice of life, but should be without anger and name-calling.

 

I think your original statement was:

When did Columbia Southern become a "respected school?" Respected by who? If anything, they meet SEVERAL of the criteria you've proposed for defining a mill.

Are you referring to UoP as the "king of DL RA schools?" IIRC, they were discussed in a previous thread-- didn't they move out of WASC territory and immediately into candidacy, and then-- like the wind-- into accreditation, without ever being enjoined from enrolling students in their original state or claiming bogus accreditation? Hardly the same creature, no?

 

RJT, you continue to keep coming back to this argument that K-W is operating legally, therefore it must not be a degree mill. This is really an argument that falls directly into the trap of the con-artists.You only assume that it is operating legally. I don't know that they are operating legally, just like I don't know that these "secret" offers I keep getting in email from the ex-first lady of some African nation is legal. (BTW, don't forget that it's secret so please don't tell anyone.) The way con-artists work is that they try to cover up the fact that they're operating illegally. That is why other indicators need to be used like I described in my last post.

RJT why do you keep harping on K-W not claiming bogus accreditation? Does this somehow prove that K-W is not a degree mill? I have never seen anyone claim that if an institution doesn't claim bogus accreditation then it can't be a degree mill. If you are trying to make that claim then please state it more clearly.

Please read my criteria more carefully. I don't believe that any bona fide school has done those things that I described in the secondary criteria (with only one exception). You seem to be referring to Phoenix University but PU did not do any of those things. The interesting thing about PU's move to Arizona is that they were so sensitive about appearing to be a degree mill in flight from the law that they tried to squash the history of their move from being made public. This is a very damning behavior that K-W has done THREE times. Their behavior was far worse than PU though. K-W moved only their mailbox. First to Hawaii, second to Idaho and thirdly to Wyoming each time it seems obvious that they were fleeing potential legal prosecution. PU was not fleeing potential prosecution.

 

RJT, doesn't seem to want to discuss the quality of education guaranteed by K-W. He keeps dodging the question as to what is the minimum required courses in order to claim that a Bachelor's degree is earned. But I'll try again, RJT, a standard Bachelor's degree requires 120 semester units of work. What is the minimum required in your opinion before it can be claimed that a Bachelor's degree was earned.

1. 0 credits,
2. 0 credits, write one essay.
3. 10 credits
4. 15 credits
5. 20 credits
6. 25 credits
7. 30 credits
8. 35 credits
9. 40 credits
10. 45 credits
11. 50 credits
12. 60 credits
13. 65 credits
14. 70 credits
15. 75 credits
16. 80 credits
17. 85 credits
18. 90 credits
19. 95 credits
20. 100 credits
21. 105 credits
22. 110 credits
23. 115 credits
24. 120 credits
25. 120 credits plus covering the breadth of subjects that is the standard for the different Bachelor's degrees.

 

Actually Bill has changed my mind. The example that comes first to mind is that I thought it would be best if California made all non-accredited degrees illegal. Bill has convinced me that some of the CA approved schools are innovative and fill some small specialities.

 

Bill Huffman: Are those secret offers a winnie-winnie proposition, or no?

 

There are certainly CA approved schools that fill some specialities. But do they really need to be granting degrees? In practice, wouldn't a "Certificate of Completion" or some kind of diploma from the National Test Pilot's School be just as useful as the degree they currently grant?

 

I would be interested in Bill Dayson's opinion on this general issue. Do you have an opinion that you would care to share? I know that you've looked into the world of CA approved degrees. Would we (Californians) be better off with a law similar to Oregon or New Jersey?

 

I would be interested to hear Bill D's opinion on this as well. There might very well be valid reasons for these schools to grant degrees rather than some other type of award. I don't know.

However, it is important to keep in mind that although they are adjacent geographically, there is a huge middle ground between California and Oregon in terms of policy regarding degree granting and acceptance. It's also important to keep in mind that degree-granting authority and degree acceptance are two seperate issues.

As far as degree-granting authority is concerned, the model I tend to favor is strict regulation of degree-granting institutions and much looser regulation of schools that do not grant degrees.

The libertarian in me makes me shy away from government regulation of degree acceptance.

 

Do ministers need M.Div.s? Do professors need Ph.D.s? I suppose that almost any field would do just fine with "certificates" rather than "degrees".

Oregon allows the use of degrees from both accredited schools and OR-approved institutions. If California duplicated that law, then all the CA-approved degrees would still be legal in California.

Among my top ten CA-approved schools on the other thread:

Hsi Lai is a candidate with WASC.

Soka is an applicant to the AALE and probably intends to apply to WASC.

Keck is 100% certain to become WASC accredited at the first opportunity.

Expression's attempt to eliminate general education and its unconventional format probably wouldn't impress WASC. Since then some GE classes have been started and Expression talks cryptically of applying for "national accreditation". I don't know what that means, perhaps NASAD.

Intercultural Institute applied to WASC and was turned down due to its small size and limited resources. It has since entered into an arrangement to offer its degrees jointly with CIIS.

IBS only has a couple of dozen students, which is too small for WASC to consider. It has entered into a cooperative arrangement to offer its degrees through the Graduate Theological Union.

Dharma Realm, according to what I hear, was told by WASC that its small size and the way that its program is integrated with Buddhist practice made its chances of success low. WASC actually suggested that they contact ATS or TRACS, suggesting to me that WASC's representative didn't have a clue.

NTPS rolled out its degree programs in 1994. I don't know if they intend to apply to WASC at some point. Given their astronomical tuition and their resource-intensive program, they probably only have a very small enrollment at any one time.

Campion only has about 30 students. I suppose that they could aply to AALE. They probably intend to grow their enrollment and apply to WASC sometime in the future.

SF Law has been around for the better part of a century, so it doesn't seem to be in any hurry to become accredited. It's found its niche, I guess.

OK. Of my ten, one is a WASC candidate, one is an AALE applicant and a third is clearly on an accreditation track. A fourth has an unconventional format they might be able to sell to a dedicated art accreditor. Five more schools seem to have enrollments too low for WASC to look at. Of these, two have entered into cooperative joint degree arrangements with accredited schools. The tenth is a law school that specializes in preparing students for the CA bar exam.

I don't know what would be accomplished by shutting down what, to my eyes at least, are good programs. It would become impossible to start new schools, even if they are clearly on an accreditation track. And it would suppress California's crazy and wonderful grass-roots scholarship, where small groups of people with a vision, whether they are ahead of their time or out of their minds, can actually create their own institutes and schools.

 

Why limit the number and types of experiences possible. Those institutions that are of poor quality or of limited use will die of their own disuse. People are not limited by too many choices, but by too few.

 

You seem to be arguing that degree mills accepting money from co-conspirators should be allowed to defraud their way to success, after all it's just providing another option. If that is below where you draw the line then go back to my earlier post in this same thread and tell me where you draw the line for what makes enough credits to be able to truthfully claim that a Bachelor's degree was earned.

 

WY state doesn't have a minimum number of credits earned for their license requirements. It is clear that if KW or PWU raise their minimum number of credits which is 15 to let's say 45 then they will be left with no customers. The only selling point is the 15 minimum credits that one has to take to get the degree.

KW or similar institutions are businesses and not universities and their primary goal is maximize their ROI which it means the minimum investment for the maximum return.

 

RF:

You are comparing apples to oranges.

K-W is WY State Licensed.

PW's Business Programs are CA State Approved; its other programs achieve degree conferment ability from the PW-HI Campus, which is legally a Hawaii State Registered school. Neither are based in WY.

PW-CA Campus (Business Only Programs), for a Masters alone, requires 9 courses and a Thesis, and are held to the same level of strict oversight that CCU and SCUPS, two generally respected State Approved Schools, must achieve.

Both schools are legally operating State Authorized/Approved.

This goes back to the issue of conferment authority verses utility.

 

I note that once again RJT has dodged the real issue as to why K-W is a degree mill. It only requires between 21 and 27 units for a Bachelor's degree. (That is assuming 3 units per course and a very generous 6 units for the final report.) It seems rather pathetic when compared against the standard of at least 120 units for a standard Bachelor's degree, doesn't it?

RJT claims something like 105 RA credits. This is far more impressive in my opinion that claiming a bogus degree from K-W.

 

WOW! 105 credits could give him almost a bachelors degree at most of the universities, however, most of the universities only allow 50% credit tranfer so that will leave him with something around 45 credits (assuming a 90 credit bachelor's degree). Why KW? His credits earned at KW couldn have been used for a "better" degree. The argurment of cost is not an issue since KW is quite expensive compared to others. Also, he deserves about 20 credits just for time spent defending his degree, so there was no point in taking the KW route.

 

You seem to be a very bitter person. Do you enjoy attacking people. Show me one post that I've done that shows my support for fraud. I've never spent a single day in jail nor have I ever tried to use a diploma from a degree mill. I would suggest that you state your views without finding it necessary to attack or put words into someone's mouth. You go after RJT for not agreeing with your views. I believe that people have the good sense to choose what is good for them. I believe in freedom and that having many choices in life is a good thing. I would not make your choices for you. You wouldn't say that a degree mill offers a good education and neither would I. Would you please allow the rest of us to offer our opinions without adding these hidden digs and attacks. I'm fully able to express my opinions without you adding possible motives to my statements.
Degree mills- stink and are illegal, MY OPINION
Approved Schools- Less demanding. The beginning level of useful diplomas.
Accredited Distance Degrees-More demanding, useful in most situations, of good quality and usually accepted.
Accredited Residency Degrees from the better Colleges- The most acceptance of all, good in almost all situations.
This is what I believe in concerning distance education, not more or less than this.