Are all unaccredited schools degree mills

I notice that many on this forum believe that all unaccredited schools are degree mills. Is this correct or do some of you think there is some value in unaccredited diplomas? I believe that a school that is state authorized/approved is not a degree mill. If you can buy a diploma without any work it is a degree mill, but if documentation and work is required, if it's state legal, it's not a degree mill.
James C.

 

James C: "I notice that many on this forum believe that all unaccredited schools are degree mills."

My first reaction was: More nonsense from a purveyor of nonsense. But then I thought it through:

Many on this forum are middle-aged white males.

Many middle-aged white males drink beer.

Many beer drinkers get drunk.

Many drunk people make stupid and irrational statements.

Believing that all unaccredited schools are degree mills is stupid and irrational.

Therefore, many on this forum believe that all unaccredited schools are degree mills.

Right on, James C.

John Bear
Ph.D. in Logic
Catatonic State University

 

James:

A state approved/state authorized and registered school which is completely legally operating (as established by the State Board of Education, State Department of Commerce, or State Board of Regents) within the boarders of the State where it holds a residence, as well as, requiring the student to earn (complete a combination of documentable work/course work and a Thesis) a Degree is NOT a degree mill - in the truest sense. K-W and Pacific Western fall within this category, as well as, Cal Coast, California Pacific, SCUPS, Chadwick, Century - and to the shegrin of members, Barrington does as well.

However, the utility of a State Approved Degree may not be as readily useful as an Accredited Degree. However, there is no guarantee here either. I was just on the Rutgers Campus, and I heard a tenured professor call UoP a mill.

I too am disgusted by real mills that turn out degrees based only on experience, no coursework involved, no thesis, no adjunct faculty, here is your degree in 4 weeks. These schools are true mills.

 

I feel that you already gave us a good list of mill requirements. So you know exactly what is a mill. My answer is simple, not all unaccredited schools are mills. However, KW is one based on your own criteria.

 

James,

I think you are confusing the issue of mill and substandard or limited utility. I would not say that many here consider all unaccredited schools 'mills'. Most here identify the reality of the far more limited utility of unaccredited schools and there have been posted examples of substandard course & degree criteria of some unaccredited schools.

There are some unaccredited schools that are acknowledged on par with RA schools such as BJU & PCC. BJU may even be superior to the average RA school ***BUT*** even in this case there are utility issues. For example, I work in an organization that will NOT accept unaccredited degrees. They will accept RA, NA but under no cirucmstance UnA.

Additionally, I believe Bill Dayson here has posted a number of CA approved schools he considers quite respectable academically.

North

 

RF, How so?

K-W requires coursework completion (albeit, number dependent on assessment).

K-W requires a Thesis or Final Project. (BS 75 pages, beyond first chapter; MSc. 150 Pages, etc.) This is a Mandatory requirement.

K-W is properly authorized, and regulated by the WY Department of Education.

K-W has an Adjunct RA Degreed part-time staff on hand, to grade and develop course content.

K-W has a 9 month minimum enrollment, far more than 4 weeks.

Let's not turn this into a K-W Bashing Fest.

 

These are the 8 points that according to you make a degree mill (These were posted on a separate thread):
"
The differentiating differences between an illegal degree mill and unaccredited school, in my opinion are:

1. Because in the US accreditation is entirely voluntary and since the States are the legal operating authority for granting degrees, at a minimum, is the degree offering institution legally authorized and complaint within the State it claims conferment residence to issue post secondary degrees. Does the state authority recognize it's licensure of the school; is the school legally state registered and in full compliance, as a minimum standard. If it has religious exemption from Sate regulations, it should only issue religious degrees.

2. Is the degree earned. There must be courses and a program which must be sequentially followed and completed works evaluated (mechanized/proctored).

3. The adjunct-faculty should have with recognized graduate degrees, from respected and recognized schools.

4. Are there published grade standards, or are A's given to all. If an A is earned with a course, it must be documentable thru proof of graded test, project completion and graded, or evaluated and graded report.

5. Is the school solvent, or a fly by night operation, are there complaints, check with the BBB. Does the school play a civic role within the state it claims its degree issuance authority.

6. Does the school maintain records and develop valid transcripts, or do they use a transcription service (bogus).

7. Although not an official requirement, and some mills are grandfathered, the majority of the schools which use the .EDU web address, are legitimate. Be wary of xxxedu.com or xxx.com, xxx.net, xxx-org.com.

8. Doe the school currently clearly state that it is unaccredited and state registered or CA state approved, or does the school use a bogus accreditor - the worst violation.

A mill will issue a piece of paper, and backdate a transcript, with no course work altogether. A mill is illegally operating, or operating illegally within the guidelines of the state in which it gains it's conferment abilities. Mills will leave the US altogether and claim African or Caribbean authorization, averting even the most minimum US State Licensure laws. You can send your dogs paw print, and write CV - on top, and he'll have a PH.D.

Thanks, "




KW fails according to your standards:

KW used to claim accreditation by the National Association for Private Post-Secondary Education Washington, DC. Mentioned, in 1990, in the literature of Kennedy-Western University. They say they are not an accrediting agency but a private association of schools, however Kennedy-Western claimed accreditation from them.


http://www.degree.net/guides/non-gaap_listings.html


I think this board thinks that because we have gave enough evidence that KW is a mill all the unaccredited schools are mills. All the schools have to start as unaccredited schools before they become accredited so there is no reason to believe that all the unaccredited schools are mills. However, mills are basically schools that have no true intention to educate but to make money from the ignorance of the students and have no intention to become accredited and deceive potential students with phony accreditations as KW once did. Many journals and goverment agencies have spotted them and organizations as KW have been mentioned in diploma mills lists. A good list of diploma mills that are differentiated from unaccredited degrees can be found at.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/sectionindex2/0,5746,degreemills%5E%5ETEXT,00.html


Notice that this link clearly differentiates between "unaccredited" and mills.

I hope this helps,

 

Also, The FBI had a diploma mill operation called DIPSCAM that had the purpose to expose diploma mills. For some reason this organizatios is not longer active but you can find a copy of their top twelve diploma mill lists here:


http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00091.html


> Number 1
> Columbia State University (Louisiana)
> Number 2
> La Salle University (Louisiana)
> Number 3
> Chadwick University (Alabama)
> Number 4
> American State University (Hawaii)
> Number 5
> American International University (Alabama)
> Number 6
> Columbus University (Louisiana)
> Number 7
> Monticello University (Kansas)
> Number 8
> Frederick Taylor University (California)
> Number 9
> Pacific Western University (Hawaii)
> Number 10
> City University (California)
> Number 11 Kennedy Western University (Hawaii)
> Number 12 Trinity University (Great Britain)

Again, it seems that even the FBI thinks that our beloved KW is a diploma mill and scored even higher that our diploma mill favorite "Trinity college & University".

 

RJT- I've never considered K-W a degree mill. It's operating legally in WY and requires course work to receive a diploma. A degree mill requires none or almost none. From what you say you do some solid work. I respect your choice and your efforts...
James C.

 

So you think that a thesis should be required for a Bachelor's degree or it's a degree mill?

Okay so what if the school only required say half the courses than what a standard Bachelor's degree required but they did require a thesis, would that be a degree mill?

 

A nice article about how diploma mills.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=13075

 

Trinity isn't legal anywhere, and requires no course work. It is indeed a diploma mill. K-W requires work to be done and operates legally in Wy. Chadwick is Approved in Alabama and requires work to be done. I thought Frederick Taylor(Calif.) was Approved to operate in Calif. Frederick International was the bad guy, or so I understood. This list is a mix of legal and degree mills. The FBI mixed them all together. Either they don't understand about authorized schools that require course work or don't care.
James

 

An unaccredited degree has value in the marketplace if it is defensible (and you defend it properly)... i.e. demonstrating the school is state approved or certified against published standards or that it has some other basis for legitimacy. It is also more easily defended if it is a graduate degree and you have an RA degree(s) in the portfolio. Most professional jobs require only a bachelors. So, if you had an RA bachelors and unaccredited but legitimate graduate degree(s), that would not be a detriment in many cases. Even though we know accreditation means recognized by US DOE, I think many employers are satisfied if the alum responds to the question of whether or not the school is accredited with "Yes, accredited (or approved, or certified) by the state of _____". I know there are some serious checkers out there and they have their books to cross-reference your response with US DOE recognition but I think most don't go into that level of grit (notwithstanding academia and licensed professions).

Some will say, aha you don't have to defend an RA degree! I think a degree from a university that is not immediately recognized, even RA (some less than commonly known schools: Don Bosco College, Hiwassee College, Ricks College, or Rainy River...the list goes on an on), will have to be defended or explained in some manner sooner or later.

 

Trinity claims to be accredited in Spain:
Government Accreditation
Reference: JPA(L)130/10/2-6kit.128


http://www.trinityeducation.com/

Its MBA requires course work.


Master of Business Administration
(MBA) Self Study Course and Tutored


Overview of the Course
Summary and Subjects covered in the Course
Qualification and Course Fee Structure
Further information and Frequently Asked Questions
Enrolment information and What to do Next.
Master of Business Administration

The Trinity College & University operates a very successful tutored Master of Business Administration Course (MBA) from Spain, the full fees for which are, £995 (US$1690). We have begun a programme of the same course on a "Self-Study" basis, for people with the dscipline to learn by themselves and in their own time anywhere in the World, at a cost of £449 (US$765).

The process of studying at the MBA level will help students to develop the conceptual skills necessary to respond and take advantage of a changing business environment. The Course will help you develop further your interpersonal and management skills, develop strategies for your own and the organisation's growth within any business environment, improve your managerial effectiveness and prepare you for the more Senior positions you are likely to aspire to in the future.

Here is what the course provides:

The Complete "MBA Study Book"
The "12 Examination Papers"
A "Graded Transcript of Studies"
The "Master of "Business Administration Degree Certificate"
Support from the Correspondence Accreditation Association, confirming your qualifications to any enquirer.
The Transcript of studies, which you will get as part of the package leads you through the contents of the course in a 12 stage modular progression with examination papers provided for you at each level, each to be completed.

Transcript of Studies - Master of Business Administration

Part One - Personal Development, High Achievement
1.1 Analyze yourself
1.2 Setting goals (One and three year goals)

Part Two - Time Management
2.1 Assessing your time management skills
2.2 Focusing on results and opportunites
2.3 Using your diary for better time management


Part Three - Personal Effectiveness
3.1 Appearances
3.2 Handling your manager or fellow Directors
3.3 Delegation and team building
3.4 Meetings
3.5 The telephone
3.6 Personal production
3.7 Personal motivation
3.8 Business knowledge
3.9 The effective manager

Part Four - Solving Problems and Decision Making
4.1 Effective decision making
4.2 Solving problems
4.3 Handling crisis

Part Five - Effective Commmunication Skills
5.1 Effective writing
5.2 Effective presentations

Part Six - Finance
6.1 Understanding the essentials
6.2 Techniques to increase profits

Part Seven - Project Management
7.1 Introduction
7.2 Project life cycle
7.3 Project programmes and the organisation
7.4 Planning and the project life cycle
7.5 Progressing the agreed plan
7.6 Controlling the programme
7.7 Final handover to the client
7.8 Main characteristics of project managers
7.9 Support for project management

Part Eight - Human Resources Management
8.1 The people factor
8.2 Human resources strategy
8.3 Managing change
8.4 Communications
8.5 Achieving effective people performance
8.6 Human resources and your organisation

Part Nine - Competitive Marketing Strategy
9.1 The pupose of strategy
9.2 Market segments
9.3 Costs and market share
9.4 Revenue and costs
9.5 Strategy formulation, planning and implementation

Part Ten - Strategy and Business Development
10.1 A practical approach to business development strategy
10.2 Turn around of a loss making business

Part Eleven - Business Plans
11.1 Introduction
11.2 Key ingredients

Part Twelve - Acquisitions and Disposals of Unquoted Companies
12.1 Buying
12.2 Selling
12.3 Negotiating
12.4 Managing post completion

Final Grade

 

It is interesting to see that some members feel more qualified that goverment organizations to talk about education and diplomas scams.

 

Or perhaps your definition of degree mills doesn't include many degree mills? For example, the degree mills that have been proven in a court of law to be degree mills for the most part appeared to the casual observers to be operating legally at least by your apparent definition. It wasn't until their practices were exposed did it become obvious that they were operating illegally.

 

Trinity had offered me a degree for $300 dollars. They may have other plans for other areas that are better. If so I apologize for my ignorance. James

 

Trinity College and University is a mill, however, my point is that not because a schools seems to offer some kind of couse work means is not. Some schools may offer you some course work or a dissertation to sell the idea that you "earned" the degree.