Are all unaccredited schools degree mills

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by kf5k, May 25, 2003.

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  1. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Electrical Engineering vs Electrical Engineering Technology

    Thanks, Dick, valuable information, but perhaps I should’ve phrased my question better. After having hired numerous engineers over my more than 20 years in the medical electronic instrumentation field, I believe understand the differences in the fields and the required curriculums. My concern pertained specifically to K-W’s requirements for an Electrical Engineering degree and how they compared to a legitimate Electrical/Electronic Engineering Technology program.

    What I really wanted to know was whether K-W’s required 4, 5 or 6 courses pertain exclusively to engineering or advanced mathematics, or if they instead resemble more those found in the curriculum of an Engineering Technology degree. In other words, aside from the total degree requirements being completely inadequate for a legitimate degree, does K-W compound the problem by mislabeling the major altogether? Is it possible that an individual would actually learn more about Electrical Engineering in a legitimate Engineering Technology program than K-W’s Electrical Engineering program?

    It is clear that legitimate Electrical Engineering degree programs are more rigorous and that the degree carries much more prestige (and pays better) than Electrical/Electronic Engineering Technology degrees. In fact, human nature being what it is, I’m sure that there is more than one individual out there claiming a BSEE when what they really have is a BSEET (solely for the sake of brevity, of course ;) ).
     
  2. Re: Re: Electrical Engineering vs Electrical Engineering Technology

    You are welcome.....

    Well if you apply the accredidation requirements of ABET to the KW BSEE progam, the answer to your query is "neither".

    Examination of the requirements for mathematics does not take the student beyond the Introduction to Calculus as required by the "technology" program description. KW does not offer coursework in probability and statistics, nor complex variables nor differential equations as described in the Engineering definition. Without these courses, the ability to demonstrate ability to "design" complex electronic circuits or devices would be difficult to demonstrate for a graduate BSEE (My Opinion here). Outside of the mathematics requirenents, I can't speak to the level of depth for their EE cousework since Electrical Engineering is not my discipline. Given the math requirements, I don't believe the level of maturity of coursework would be up to par with other BSEE progams at Bricks and Mortor Institutions. In addition, KW has no Laboratory requirements.

    Just my thoughts.. maybe an electical engineer could add some perspective.

    Dick

    ABET Volunteer Visitor for Manufacturing Engineering programs


     
  3. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    IIRC, the EE major at UC Berkeley requires 2 or 3 lab classes. An important caveat though is that I was a computer science major but just considered an EE degree.
     
  4. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    EE124 - Engineering Math, Part I

    Degree Level: Bachelors

    Course Description:

    Basic algebra, trigonometry, and geometry required for engineering. Topics include: basic algebraic operations, geometry, functions and graphs, trigonometric functions, systems of linear equations, determinants, factoring and fractions, quadratic equations, vectors, graphing, exponents and radicals, complex numbers, exponential and logarithmic functions

    EE126 - Engineering Math Part Il

    Degree Level: Bachelors

    Course Description:

    Advanced algebra, trigonometry, and calculus techniques required for engineering analysis. Topics include: Matrix algebra, inequalities, variation, ratios and proportion, sequences and the binomial theorem, advanced trigonometry, plane analytical geometry, statistics, differentiation, integration, series expansion of functions, and differential equations

    The above are the math courses that I had to take in the KW EE program. I had College Trig., Probability & Statistics, and Elementary Calculus in my ASEET program. The KW courses were much harder than the RA college transfer courses that I took above. I graduated in my AS with a 4.0, and did not fare as well with the KW courses.
     
  5. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    Gus:

    I know Dick posted the official differences, but here are mine. If you look at Grantham, or other EET programs they typically focus on electronics. Unless you work for an electronic manufacturer, or you are doing electronic repair work you will mainly focus in the area of electricity more than electronics.

    For example, I have a degree in electronics. Before I started my business, I was an electronic technician in a plant. My title may have been electronic technician, but other than some process control I was basically an electrician that knew controls, and instrumentation. Board level electronics never comes into play much anymore. I would imagine the same is true for medical electronics when the XRay machine goes down they probably troubleshoot it, and change the bad circuit board.

    Electrical Engineering lets you focus a little more on power systems, programmable controllers, instrumentation, and so on. That is more suitable to me than linear electronics.

    Regards,

    Scott
     
  6. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    So it appears that the math requirements are, at best, on a par with those required in an Electrical/Electronic Engineering Technology program and not equivalent to those required for an Electrical Engineering degree. What about the other 3 or 4 required courses?
     
  7. BobC

    BobC New Member

    I was a chemical engeering major my first 3 yrs in school. But the basic RA Engineering/Science lower division math requirement is Calc I, II, III and Differential Equations. The JC I went to each Calc class was 5 units and the Diff Eq was 4 units, so all in all, 19 Units of pure Calc. KW EE126 sounds more like a Calc I Equivalent and the EE124 sounds more like your standard non-science "College Algebra plus Trigonometry" course that you can find anywhere. Although I don't doubt those math classes weren't hard for you, nor do I doubt of the same quality to you in your experience with your AS program, it would appear the KW requirements are lacking in atleast quantity in the math department compared to any typical program found in an RA school. Unless of course you didn't post all of the math requirements then ferget everything I said. :)
     
  8. BobC

    BobC New Member

    Gus beat me to the punchline by 1 minute. I'll type faster next time.
     
  9. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    This is something I totally agree with! I hired a BSEE from Clemson. The first job I put him was installing a control system that we built on a printing press. I was watching him in the control panel, and he kept reading his meter over and over, and looking around. He finally asked me if we had power in the panel or something. I said no because we did not even have the power wires pulled in yet. He said I have 243 volts on here. I walked over and noticed that his digital meter was picking up some bogus noise, and read .243 mV. (millivolts) Well after that things just got worse with this guy, and we had to send him on his way. So, I agree there ahould be more labs in all such programs.

    There has to be some kind of way for an adult with many years of experience to go back to school though.

    Would you rather have someone in the contruction field who had worked from the bottom, and then went on to get an engineering degree?

    Or

    Would you rather have a kid come straight out of school with an engineering degree that has only worked at Burger King?

    There should be some kind of way for traditional schools to evaluate your lab ability, and still do distance learning. IMHO

    Regards,

    Scott
     
  10. Looks Good On Paper

    Well the above description has a lot of topic content. However, collectively the two courses count for a total of 6 Semester Hours. The ABET program math sequences are put together with a series of courses on the subject matter. Taken collectively the sequence constitutes a Math minor. This is why ABET programs do not require a student to have a minor... it is already in the requires coursework. Way back when I was a student at Ohio State, the Calculus sequence was 4 quarters for a total of 19 Qtr Hours... ie >12 semester hours. Then there was Differential equations with Boundary Value problems and Complex Variables for another 10 quarter hrs.. ie >6 semester hours. Then there was the Probability for another 4 quarter hours.. and by the time the Sophomore year was over... you had a Minor in Mathematics.

    Although the topic listing is good, I suspect for 6 semester hours, the river is wide but not too deep. What was disturbing about the course that was described is the textbook. The forward of the book claims a non-rigorous treatment of the subject matter.

    Granted, KW has some pretty advance level math included in some of the EE courses (Numerical Analysis) but with the option to select courses, a student can totally avoid any mathematically rigorous coursework and never graduate with having solved a Boundary Value problem or a triple intergral. This "flexibility" of the program for the student's benifit could result in producing a graduate who has insufficient background to do design work or sit for licensure.

    For some one like PLCScott with a solid background, this may not be a problem. For someone with a weak background, the student may not select coursework to upgrade their level of knowledge to Engineer status and remain a technician. Unfortunately many RA program graduates never get into design work and eventually become technicians with engineering degrees. Major corporations do a good job of buying and waisting engineering talent (my observation over the past 20+ years)

    Regards,

    Dick.
     
  11. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    Dick:

    The thing is here that I am not at all claiming KW is equal to a traditional RA degree. I am simply explaining my reason for going to KW. Not defending, but explaining. KW is not accredited. KW is not ABET.

    KW does have a niche in the market, and if they would tighten standards, and go after DETC at least like other unaccredited schools seem to be shooting for then we would not have to explain our reasons for attending KW.

    Regards,

    Scott
     
  12. KW Not ABET

    I realize that.. and I am not claiming KW is equal to a traditional degree either. KW catalog specifically states it is not set up for licensure requirements and states to contact local authorities. Professional Engineering licensure is a perogative of the states. As such, the vast majority of state registration boards model ABET requirements as the standard for educational qualification. From there, loop holes are created for non-ABET program graduates to qualify on the basis of course work distribution, experience, etc.. Not every engineering program is ABET accredited.

    Economics also affects licensure. October 2003 will be the last sitting for the PE exam in Manufacturing Engineering. There is just not enough takers to justify the continuance of the exam. However, there are still ABET accredited programs in Manufacturing Engineering. The pool of potential independent consulting engineers will shrink with graduates forced to stay as captive employees working under the Industrial Exemption clause. These people will not longer be able to offer services to the public by using the tile "Engineer". Thet will have to call themselves something else... Interesting side bar for me but probably of no value to the post readers...

    I agree they have a niche market and if the business model works, there is no incentive to change. Obviously investors where satisified with the KW success a few years ago that KW got several millions for recapitalization to agressively build an IT infrastructure.

    Well Scott, if KW ever does get DETC accredation, let me know and I will buy you a steak dinner and a beer. I'm betting my money stays in my pocket...

    Dick

     
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    My traditional response to Scott's comment about K-WU and pursuing accreditation has always been along the lines of "Yeah, that'll be the day...." But seeing Andrew Jackson, Southwest, St. John's, and others try it, and seeing CCU and Century planning it, who knows? I used to think these schools would never drop their doctoral programs in order to pursue DETC accreditation, but it's happening. Could Kennedy-Western follow? No reason to think they will, of course. But now there's less reason to think they won't.

    It's a changing scene, surely.
     
  14. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    Re: KW Not ABET

    Dick:

    I agree with all the above. KW seems to be all about money. That is where I have a problem with them. Money doesn't always equal success. If KW wants to get a good reputation they should start thinking more about education than the bottom line. In the long run they would be more successful IMHO. I do not think they will pursue accreditation either. I think they are going to try to make as much money as possible until the heat gets too hot, and then bail. That will leave thousands of people without anything to show for their work or money.
     
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: KW Not ABET

    One thing K-WU certainly has shown is resiliency. They've operated for more than 20 years and haven't folded up their tent yet. This despite "moving" from California to Idaho to Hawaii and to Wyoming. Of course, they've stayed stable, continuing to run the operation from California all that time.
     
  16. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    Re: Re: Re: KW Not ABET

    That is something that the average person who looks at KW will never find out about.
     
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: KW Not ABET

    Quite so. K-WU has a great internet scheme that almost ensures this. They have many urls out there with links back to K-WU. If you do a search on Google, you get pages of these before any links pop up with independent information about the school. It seems to be an attempt to give them an air of reality (so many websites citing them....), and it deters people from reading other information about the school. A Google search reveals about 11,200 hits. You have to scroll down about 230 of them before getting to something that isn't advertising. And that's someone's resume listing a K-WU degree. It stops at 367 hits, saying the rest are essentially the same. None of the 367 is an independent article or something discussing K-WU--all advertising.

    Helluva flood using multitudes of urls.
     
  18. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Thanks for backing up my own cursory investigation of KW's "footprint".
     
  19. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: KW Not ABET

    But when I searched on "Kennedy Western Mill" via Copernic, this was the first link that displayed:

    http://www.counterfeitlibrary.com/cl/qual.asp

    :D
     
  20. c.novick

    c.novick New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: KW Not ABET


    Wait... Pacific Western University is on the list here also.

    Isn't there another thread on them? Hmmmmm. :confused:
     

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