Are all unaccredited schools degree mills

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by kf5k, May 25, 2003.

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  1. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    The California State University only requires that students take their last 30 units with the campus that grants the degree.

    Among their DL bachelors degrees:

    BA Liberal Studies, BS Quality Assurance, BS Nursing, BS Environmental Resource Management, BA Social Science (Breadth Option), BA Sociology, BS Computer Science

    And obviously there are the old reliables: TESC, Excelsior and COSC. These offer many different majors, liberal transfer policies (up to 100%) and expansive testing and portfolio credit. Western Governor's University has recently joined that group.

    There's probably a hundred other places where somebody could put 105 units to work, if they would just consult something like 'Bear's Guide'.

    If those 105 units are accredited and if they represent a halfway coherent program, then he could get an accredited BA with as little as 15 units (one semester's) additional work. Even if some of those 105 units aren't accredited, he could perhaps use them as a basis for exams or portfolios.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2003
  2. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Options have been suggested to RJT that if pursued would have earned him a RA degree faster and cheaper than K-W. This assumes that what he's said was true, of course. Some of what he's said in the past doesn't really add up though. You've pointed out one. Another I find difficult to believe is that Unisys hired a HR manager that didn't have a Bachelor's degree. It makes me suspicious that there might be a RJT senior and a RJT junior and that junior might have really just used some of his Dad's records when he applied at K-W.
     
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member


    Have he confirmed that he is this Robert from Unisys?. I remember that someone sent him an email and never replied with the confirmation of this. It is quite possible that he was hired based on his experience and his 105 credits. What is hard to believe is that he actually completed his degree from KW after 105 credits. More hard to believe coming from an HR director that knows the limitations of such a degree and the bad reputation of it among credible companies.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    But there is a world of difference between a CPT in the army with a commission from the Prez or Gov (NG/SG) and someone who goes down to a group re enacting battles and getting made a CPT. or General. Same thing with your amateur radio license which you point out was 'hard won'.

    I have no problem with folks learning in all kinds of situations. People earn doctorates to have a 'doctorate' and there is a problem with people from many unaccredited schools running around with the title 'Dr.' implying a level of knowledge and work that may not be there.

    Maybe we need a law mandating that unaccredited degrees be accompanied by UnA, for example
    PhD (UnA), Mail Box University.

    It might be a level of consumer protection.

    North
     
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    James, you're a real crack up. You keep attacking me and I keep ignoring your attacks (except for this one sentence). Why don't you just try to address the issues?

    You argued that what was important was how someone felt about their degree. If they felt that it was a Bachelor's degree then that was what was important. I'll try asking again. If you don't actually feel this way then where do you think the cut off is for a bona fide Bachelor's degree? Where is that point where it is bona fide degree while any fewer units would make it bogus. I'm just trying to understand your words, James. What do they mean? If it is NOT what you said that what was important was how someone felt about thier degree that made it valid then how many units does it take to make it valid?

    I'm just trying to make sense out of your own words. If that makes you mad then, oh well, I guess that I'll just have to laugh.
     
  6. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    On the K-W forum he used a valid Unisys email address. I also remember that he claimed to be the HR director for two Unisys business units. I sent an email to the Robert at Unisys warning him that I thought someone might be using his identity on the Internet but he never responded.

    I also have difficulty believing that part of the story.
     
  7. Jeff Hampton

    Jeff Hampton New Member

    It sure is good to see that people on this forum can talk about issues without making it personal.
     
  8. kf5k

    kf5k member

    That's about all this forum is about. RJT takes more attacks than any person I've ever seen on any forum. How he manages to fight back at these group charges is amazing, but he never yields an inch. I know little about K-W and really have no interest, but I'm drawn to these feeding frenzies. They really go after him. I believe, in his place, I'd just forget it, and let them say what they will. I don't see how it's worth taking all the abuse.
     
  9. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    James previously said, "Why limit the number and types of experiences possible. Those institutions that are of poor quality or of limited use will die of their own disuse. People are not limited by too many choices, but by too few."

    Bill previously responded, "If that is below where you draw the line then go back to my earlier post in this same thread and tell me where you draw the line"

    James then responded, "You seem to be a very bitter person."

    Bill tried asking again, "Where is that point where it is bona fide degree while any fewer units would make it bogus. [...] I'm just trying to make sense out of your own words."

    James didn't respond.

    Bill will try asking again. James, you've seemed to say that substandard degrees are fine because what is important is how the holder of the substandard degree feels about it. My question is how substandard are you willing to go? You mentioned that zero work is below the line as to what you'd expect. If the person passes one class then you feel that it is okay to pass off the degree as a Bachelor's degree? Two classes? Do you really reject the idea that claiming a Bachelor's degree sets up an expectation in the minds of others and that passing off a sub-standard degree as a Bachelor's degree is being misleading maybe even dishonest?

    I note that the argument really applies to any level degree but we were specifically discussing Bachelor's degrees.
     
  10. debitcredit

    debitcredit New Member

    I just saw an ad for Cambridge State University. At least the ad says that the school is not accredited. :(
     
  11. Dr. Gina

    Dr. Gina New Member

    ??????


    Didn't someone mention that he had two degrees that are on this lest in his signature???
     
  12. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    Re: ??????

    Yes, but Pacific Western (CA approved) is somewhat different that Pacific Western (Hawaii), ummm, even though it is the same school. Kennedy Western is an entertaining school that, I am convinced, must train entertaining 'students' to shill. Degree mills? Depends on your definition.

    Tony
     
  13. kf5k

    kf5k member

    I just wanted to make sure Dr. Bear's comments about this list got brought forward.
     
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    There are several thousand degree-granting schools in the U.S. Consumers are hardly hampered by a lack of choices. And lowering standards doesn't improve the candidate pool.
     
  15. tcnixon

    tcnixon Active Member



    The original question was interesting. "Are all unaccredited schools degree mills." I suspect a great many are, but I think that number grew significantly from 1995-2003. While there were certainly degree/diploma mills prior to that, the world wide web gave everyone the air of legitimacy.

    I don't know how John even keeps up the many new mills each year.

    And there is no lack of choices, that is for sure. It is no cheaper to earn a legitimate unaccredited degree than to earn a legitimate accredited degree. Some of the unaccredited ones are actually more expensive.

    Within a very limited number of schools, unaccredited is likely acceptable. Some tout Bob Jones University and others recommend the National Test Pilot School.

    Century, St. Regis, Kennedy-Western, and almost all the rest offer nothing that could not be earned better and cheaper from an accredited school.



    Tom Nixon
     
  16. plcscott

    plcscott New Member


    I cannot understand why anyone would go to an unaccredited school for a business, or liberal arts degree because there are so many out there. The reason I went to KW is because after doing several searches for a bachelor's program in electrical engineering the only names I came up with were KW, and Century. At the time Century's literature looked like it was done in an office somewhere on an ink jet printer, and KW had a very nice brochure with hundreds of companies that paid for and accepted their degrees. Maybe it was a mistake, but given the info. I had at the time it was one of the few choices. I run a business in which I travel, and work long hours, and attending a traditional school is out of the question for me. There are degrees out there in electronics engineering technology, but not in electrical engineering. That is why I have an unaccredited degree. If I would have been searching for a degree in business KW would not have been my choice. I hope in the future more schools will offer such a degree that is accredited.
     
  17. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    This may seem like a dumb question, but what's the difference?
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Maybe there's a reason why there aren't many (any?) accredited options for an EE degree? Perhaps because it is difficult to deliver such a program via distance learning and still maintain proper academic standards?

    If the whole industry shies away from a practice, it would seem suspicious to find a practitioner outside the industry engaging in it.
     
  19. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    from
    Electronics engineering technology is primarily about the testing, manufacturing, installation, and maintance of the elctronic components designed by the electronics engineer.

    This holds for the most of the engineering technology fields versus their regular engineering counterpart. The technology side is geared to building, installing and maintaing while the engineering side is more invoved with the theory and conceptualization.

    Like many areas there is a lot of cross over, thecnologists doing design and engineers doing the field side.
     
  20. Electrical Engineering vs Electrical Engineering Technology

    Per the folks at ABET who accredit such programs..

    Electrical/Electronic(s) Engineering Technology and similarly named programs:

    Cirriculum:
    Technical Sciences: Courses must be applications-oriented with a majority having an accompanying labarotory with emphasis on measurement, , data collection and analysis, documentation, and written/oral report preparation. Course work must include the fundamentals of electricity/electronics and principles of circuit analysis.

    Technical Specialities: Technical skills and techniques courses must include topics, as appropriate, to meet the stated goals and objectives of the program. Technical Design courses must stress the use of manuals, handbooks and material/specifications, and computers where applicable.

    Basic Sciences and Mathematics: The basic science must include Physics (With laboratory) presented in a rigorous algebra/trigonomety environment (as a minimum). The minimum sequence in Mathematics is college level algebra, trigonometry, and introduction to calculus. Baccalaurate programs must include differential/intergral calculus, and instruction in applied differential equations is strongly recommended. Linear programming, numerical methods, and probability/statistics are other appropriate electives.


    ELECTRICAL, COMPUTER and similary named ENGINEERING programs :

    Curriculum: Structure must provide both breadth and depth of knowledge across the range of engineering topics implied by the title of the program. Program must demonstrate the graduates have a knowledge of probability and statistics, including applications appropriate to the program name and objectives; and knowledge of mathematics through differential and integral calculus, basic sciences, computer science, and engineering sciences necessary to analyze and design complex electrical and electronic devices, software, and systems containing hardware and software componenets , as appropriate, to program objectives. Programs with the modifier "electrical" in the title must also demonstrate that graduates have a knowledge of advanced mathematics, typically including differential equations, linear algebra, complex variables, and discrete mathematics.

    Regards,
    Dick
     

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