Are all unaccredited schools degree mills

The word "mill" is a pejorative term, and is one we probably shouldn't use. To my mind, the basic taxonomy includes:

1. Straight scams, such as the Romanian cartel.
2. Disgraceful schools such as Cal Coast, NCU, Anglia Polytechnic U. Some unaccredited, some accredited.
3. Decent though plebian schools, such as U. Phoenix, AIU, Capella, Unisa, USQ.
4. Excellent schools with DL programs. Often traditional schools with DL on the side: Columbia, NJIT, RPI.

Much of the debate is about whether places such as Kennedy Western belong in the first or second categories. But neither category is worthy of consideration, in my opinion, so why do we bother?

 

I in no possible way see California Coast University as a disgraceful school. They have been in existence for 30 years, offering quality distance education. For many years they were one of the few quality schools around. In more recent times accredited schools have jumped into the mix, and have, to some extent, shunted Coast aside, but during those years when accredited schools held their collective noses, Coast welcomed the distance learners. I appreciate what they have done, and wish them well. DETC soon???
James

 

RValve: "Some schools may offer you some course work or a dissertation to sell the idea that you "earned" the degree."

Cehi: I am trying to understand your logic better. Could you please expain how else student should earn their degrees. Regardless of which school you attend, I thought that a student earns a degree with courseworks or a combination of courseworks and a thesis, or dissertation, depending on the type of degree. If I misunderstood your comments, please accept my many apologies.

 

I wrote that "mill" is a pejorative term and shouldn't be used. And of course "disgraceful" is too. I should have said something like "Significantly substandard" (DETC or no DETC!).

 

It seems you are going around in circles. “Pejorative” is an adjective expressing disapproval. Therefore, unless you approve of something deemed ”significantly substandard”, that terminology is also pejorative. Moreover, “significantly substandard” is perhaps the only definition of a degree mill upon which we can all agree. The bottom line is that if you disapprove of degree mills, then pejorative terminology is appropriate.

Personally, I like Steve Levicoff’s distinction between diploma mills and degree mills, and needless to say, I also like my own, all-encompassing, GAAS criteria (which ignores DETC and other forms of accreditation).

 

RFValve writes:
"Also, The FBI had a diploma mill operation called DIPSCAM that had the purpose to expose diploma mills. For some reason this organizatios is not longer active but you can find a copy of their top twelve diploma mill lists here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00091.html"

John Bear responds:
Do you have any evidence that says or suggests that this is really an FBI list? I don't think it is.

I was a consultant to DipScam for its entire life, 1980 to 1990, and was never aware of any such list.

 

It is clear CCU IS a substandard school. To most of us, that means degree mill. If they obtain DETC accreditation it will be a big move up for them. While I would no longer consider them a degree mill, at that point, they would still be substandard to the general standard in the U.S. (RA).

I do appreciate the work they did in the past and if we were talking 20 years ago obviously the standard would be different.

I don't know about your boss, but mine could care less what I did last week. The question is what have you done for me today? The same is true for any business or organization. They aren't performing in the 1970's. It is here and now, and to the best performer goes the (tuition) dollars.

Right now TUI is outperforming just about everyone. Who knows in 5 years? Will one of the Ivy's open the closed gate? Will State Universities contine to adapt and follow the lead of profit based groups?

It is an exciting time in distance learning. I think we have just seen the beginning

 

What is a Degree Mill

Regional or National Accreditation is undeniably the premium standard for a US based postsecondary school, as it exempt from having to meet a state’s licensure requirements. However, for some students State Approved post-secondary options do offer an alternative. Many long running State Approved/Authorized/Legally Licensed post secondary schools have chosen, for whatever their purpose not to become accredited. However, in the United States accreditation is completely voluntary. Therefore, since the STATES, not an accrediting agency, are the final legal authority in the United States for determining what is a legally operating post secondary educational institution within it’s borders; a degree from a properly state licensed school is just as legal as any other.

Let’s solve the whole dilemma by defining what is and is not a diploma/degree mill:

US based Degree Mill:

1. NOT LEGALLY AUTHORIZED/REGISTSTERD/APPROVED within the state it claims residential conferment authority from.

2. OFFERS NO COURSE WORK, THESIS DEVELOPMENT or PROGRAM completion. OFFERS degrees entirely based on LIFE EXPERINCE.

3. Has NO compensated ADJUNCT RA Degreed-Faculty advisors/instructors.

4. Possesses NO Records, Develops NO Transcripts, DOES NOT provide direct DIRECT Verification (uses a bogus service).


US LEGALLY STATE APPROVED/AUTHORIZED/REGISTERED School:

1. FULLY in LEGAL compliance to offer postsecondary degrees within one of the fifty STATES in which it maintains its resident conferment ability from. The school must Legally meet the requirements set forth by the STATE; the school must be properly STATE REGISTERED, APPROVED/AUTHORIZED.

2. Requires the COMPLETION of Graded COURSEWORK, requires the COMPLETION of a THESIS/Final Project, which is graded/advised by adjunct-faculty, which posses proper Regional Accredited credentials. The list of Adjunct Professors should be available on either the school’s (.EDU) Web page, or it’s catalog.

3. Maintains a Record Keeping Facility, for attesting/maintaining records of courses and documentable learning-works completed, develops properly authorized and sealed transcripts, accurate attendance and curricula verification.

4. Does not CURRENTLY CLAIM FALSE ACCREDITATION and accurately conveys unaccredited status. Schools change, bad schools turn good and vice versa. JUST REMEMBER: Columbia Southern, a properly accredited school claimed bogus accreditation up until it received DETC approval. Columbia Southern now states its disposition accurately as does, K-W and PWU.

We should be proud of our legally earned degrees whether, RA (UoP, Toro, etc.) or SA (K-W, CCU, SCUPS, PWU, Chadwick or Columbia Commonwealth), and not argue amongst each other.

 

They used to have a web site www.dipscam.com. The list is a copy of what they used to display as the top ten degree mill.

 

Re: Re: Are all unaccredited schools degree mills

I definitely agree with that. It's why I started my thread on state-approved schools that I like. I like them precisely because I think that they are defensible.

I'm less inclined to automatically accept state-approval by itself. A state-approved school is going to need more defending than an accredited school.

I think that I disagree with that. While obscure schools may need some selling in a competitive situation, nobody doubts their fundamental legitimacy. If a school is accredited, people generally assume that real education takes place there. That isn't always the case with non-accredited schools.

 

I should have added "substantially" less course work compared to an RA degree or a "few" pages dissertation. E.g. five courses for a degree or 3 page dissertation.

This way the holder of the degree can claim that he lawfully obtained the degree. Of course together with an evaluation of your resume where they grant you 90% of the course work for it.

When I started looking for DL schools 5 years ago, I had evaluations from Harrington, KW, Washington international where they offered the PhD for a small dissertation.

I believe even had a diploma sent by Harrington with my name on it and the label "Sample" diploma to get me excited and send the money.

If a regular PhD requires 4 to 8 years of work and you get an offer to finish it in 6 to 12 months. Would it not be considered a degree mill just because you had to submit some work that takes 6 to 1 year part time (assuming that no previous work was done) when a normal degree takes at least 4 years?

 

Re: What is a Degree Mill

This "legally" term is very open. It depends where you live, a degree from KW would be considered illegal in the Oregon state and many countries in Europe and with no equivalency in Canada.

 

RValve: " I should have added "substantially" less course work compared to an RA degree or a "few" pages dissertation. E.g. five courses for a degree or 3 page dissertation.

This way the holder of the degree can claim that he lawfully obtained the degree. Of course together with an evaluation of your resume where they grant you 90% of the course work for it.

When I started looking for DL schools 5 years ago, I had evaluations from Harrington, KW, Washington international where they offered the PhD for a small dissertation.

I believe even had a diploma sent by Harrington with my name on it and the label "Sample" diploma to get me excited and send the money.

If a regular PhD requires 4 to 8 years of work and you get an offer to finish it in 6 to 12 months. Would it not be considered a degree mill just because you had to submit some work that takes 6 to 1 year part time (assuming that no previous work was done) when a normal degree takes at least 4 years?


Cehi: Excellent explanation. I agree. Thank you.

 

I don't like this category.

I think that accredited schools have a presumption of innocence, and non-accredited schools have a presumption of guilt.

I have enough respect for the accreditation process to accept its results unless somebody can convince me otherwise. But given that most non-accredited schools are bad jokes, I think that non-accredited schools have to show me something before I'll accept them.

Given these presumptions of mine, I'll accept your dismissal of Cal Coast tentatively, pending its champions making its case. But I think that the burden is on you to defeat NCU and Anglia Polytechnic.

I prefer to think in terms of programs that I think are special.

An obscure university can easily become special if it offers me something that I want, something that I can't find elsewhere. If I am a biotech firm looking for a Ph.D. level specialist in some arcane detail of active transport across cell membranes, I will think that candidates with dissertations and research experience in that particular area are special, regardless of the "tier-ranking" of the schools that produced them.

The University of Sunderland is a "new university" in an unstylish industrial city, right down there with your Anglia Polytechnic. But it offers a unique DL program led by a prominent scholar. That makes it special, at least to me. The National Test Pilot School is clearly special, despite being CA-approved. That's why it can charge $225,000 tuition a semester. (And why taxpayers pay for it.)

 

RF:

K-W can not be compared to Harrington, Harrington is a completely ILLEGAL operation.

K-W is legally operating, and properly WY State Department of Education regulated.

H requires no coursework.

K-W for a PH.D. will require 7-9 courses, as unless you were to transfer RA PH.D courses, which is not likely possible.

HW sent a sample.

K-W definitely would not do this, their program is a minimal of 9 mos., I've witnessed up to 5 years.

K-W is illegal in OR. All unaccredited schools are unless they submit their programs to OR for review; so is CCU, California Pacific, etc. This law has no teeth, no one has yet to be prosecuted; I can not wait until it is challanged.

Regards,

 

Just found this link from a fellow that claims that he bought a degree from KW. Notice that his complete name is on it.

"LAWRENCE J. KNOPFLER
I think this a very useful site. I can pay $20 to get a certificate of membership.
I can frame it and hang it on the wall beside the PhD I purchased from Kennedy-Western.
That way, everybody is fooled into thinking I am a smart fellow."


http://www.mycgiserver.com/~naacademy/academyfellows/discussion.jsp

 

Re: Re: Re: Are all unaccredited schools degree mills

You'll get more job offers in Texas having a diploma from the University of Texas than by having one from Excelsior.
James

 

Not according to Alan Contreras. The main reason can be found in this good article about this topic

http://www.hr.das.state.or.us/lru/mi/april2000.pdf

KW is illegal mainly because it is considered a substandard degree. The definition of substadard degrees according to Contreras is:

"Substandard degrees. A person holds a degree from an institution that is real and is licensed by another state but which is not accredited by a federally-recognized agency. Some of these are even “accredited” by bogus accredit-ing entities and can sometime have names that sound like well-known legitimate institutions, e.g. the University ofSanta Barbara (an illegal degree
for use in Oregon) vs. the University of California at Santa Barbara (a legaldegree)."

As for the powerful WY state license, he comments that:

"Some states (Oregon, Pennsylvania, Michigan, New York and others) have strong standards that colleges must meet. Others (Wyoming, Alabama, Louisiana and others) have few standards or insufficient staff to enforce standards. Hawaii and Montana have no standards at all"

 

Here is a list of some WY state licensed instutions:

Preston University
Columbia Commonwealth University’s
ATLANTIC INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY
AMERICAN GLOBAL UNIVERSITY


According to WY state a license is:

license is a non-transferable document issued by the Wyoming Department of Education to a post secondary education institution located within the state or located out of state, but whose agents solicit students within the state in the name of the institution that permits the institution to solicit, offer, and maintain a course of instruction.

Does the state of Wyoming accredit the private schools it licenses?

No. Wyoming does not accredit post secondary schools.


http://www.k12.wy.us/FINANCE/private_institutions/faq.html#accreditation


So it seems that the WY license only allows the institution to enroll and conduct business in the WY state but it doesn't really look into the quality of the program itself. The WY state clarifies that they don't accredit programs but only protect the WY residents against bad business practices.

It seems to me more of a consumer's protection license rather than academic quality assurance process.

So, it seems that the degree that has a WY state license is not deceiving students and conducting business according to the law. But can we say that this is enough to guarantee good quality education?

 

CCU is in fact and by definition clearly "standard" (maybe above standard) based on the evaluation and certification procedures established by the California Education Code (readily available on the web if one cares to study it). They have been respectably going about their business of offering external education programs and meeting or exceeding the Code for the past 30 years. To consider them a degree mill is stupid in my opinion.

As far as DETC is concerned, DETC is very ticked at the RA community for alluding to distinctions in quality, when in fact it's all about business. According to published DETC statements, there is no measureable difference between DETC and RA accreditation.