Why Is This Forum Still Here?

Discussion in 'The Monterrey Institute for Graduate Studies' started by Rich Douglas, Aug 17, 2022.

  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm curious why this forum on MIGS still exists. Nothing substantial has been posted in more than a decade, and nothing at all in 9 years.

    Not the threads, just why the forum? Everything about this brief blip has been asked and answered many times over. I know it was Levicoff's favorite cat chew toy for awhile, but now it lacks even that antagonist.

    It's doubly weird given all the discussion lately about other arrangements identical to the brief one MIGS tried to pull off. From off-shore renting of degree-granting authority to schools awarding propio degrees, this putative effort from 20 years ago seems quaint, at best.

    Long-time readers (and the more recent curious) know I had some involvement in trying to get it off the ground. I also had a role in getting Florida to shut it down. I've been--and will remain--utterly open to any question about this long-dead subject. But having a separate forum for a school (the CEU) and an operation (MIGS) that lived briefly, trying (but not succeeding) to do what we now know is done all over the place.

    It just seems out-of-place.
  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I agree. It's only here because "It's much easier to give folks something than it is to take it away."
    Yeah - I'm behind this one - all the way. Maybe a referendum / poll? Or is that silly? The DI Politbureau can decide.
    JBjunior and Bill Huffman like this.
  3. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    The forum is kind of quaint. But, that probably raises it to a level of importance that I don't mean. The direct answer has probably already been told us when the forum was created 9 years ago (?).

    qoute from the forum description:
    This is essentially a historical archive of one of the most colorful and ridiculous attempts by a (then) well-known Internet entrepreneur to end-run around accreditation rules and come up with a new school. It's a colorful read and an interesting view into the mindset of questionable school operators.

    I think Johann nailed it when he said let the DI Politbureau decide. Perhaps just move the threads back into the Accreditation Discussions forum? A separate forum probably raises its visibility far higher than it deserves at this point in time?
    Dustin, Rich Douglas and Johann like this.
  4. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I thought about this a bit more.

    There's 81 threads in this forum counting this thread. If it is a big job moving 81 threads then maybe it makes more sense to delete them or move the whole MIGS forum under the Accreditation Discussions forum?
  5. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Well-Known Member

    I was wondering the same thing. This particular school is no longer around. I am 39 now and was a senior in high school or barely out of college when a lot of the MIGS post swere made yet I see it every time I log in with many of the threads haven't been touched in two decades.

    I see these old threads as nothing more than a historical artifact but not really relevant of discussion at this point.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
  6. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    I agree. Its relevance and even intelligibility at this point is questionable. It looks odd it has its own space (out of proportion to it's relevance).
    Johann likes this.
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Moderators aren't decision makers on this sort of thing, so I've passed this along.
    Dustin and Bill Huffman like this.
  8. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Indeed. A Propio, Grouponista and Costaraguan degree forum would probably have more relevance. Intelligibility? No estoy seguro. (I'm not sure.)
  9. MichaelGates

    MichaelGates Active Member

    A forum for Propio's would be nice.
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I’m happy to address assertions of fact as well as questions about this very tired and very old subject. (My involvement with MIGS was a couple of months more than 20 years ago.)

    I’m not interested in addressing personal attacks, however.

    Thanks, Mods. I do appreciate it.
  11. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I was around for the MIGS sad story. At the beginning it was not clear that MIGS would be a diploma mill. My guess is that when initially conceived it was imagined as a real school. After some stumbles and missteps things went from bad to worse. Rich was an early consultant to MIGS not a founding member of MIGS. Rich was just as quick to point out the MIGS stumbles and missteps as anyone. Actually, I don't know that I'd even characterize MIGS as a diploma mill since I don't think they ever bestowed any diplomas?
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  12. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    As I recall, even the great and venerable Dr. John Bear was initially fooled by MIGS. So, no one can knock Rich. A one-time poster here just found it a great wedge issue.

    Seriously, how long were people debating the Costa Rican school, what ENEB/Proprio schools mean and so on. People still can't figure out that African (?) consortium school whose name escapes me.

    I feel bad for some of the people who jumped on Berne University. Accredited in St. Kitts it had faculty and summer residency at a rented campus. It even got one positive foreign credential evaluator. Other foreign credential evaluators weren't so generous (UWI recognition is a nuance that is needed when small Islands with no real Higher Ed structure accredit schools). Some school administrators and others worked for those degrees and displayed them in the US only to have it go down the drain and be labeled a mill. Expensive and embarrassing.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  13. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Arguments can be made. But should we? Rich has told us all we need to know, long ago. Dig further? I heard this song on the jazz station again today:
    "Well, you needn't! It's over now, it's over now." - Thelonious Monk, 1944. :)
    Rich Douglas and Bill Huffman like this.
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Not fooled. No one was fooled because there was not a ruse going on.

    Because Sheila Danzig was involved, people assumed a scam. But it wasn’t. Sheila was about money, and so was MIGS. They hired a legitimate academic to run it, another to be its president, and a lot of faculty members. But they didn’t know what they were doing in terms of curriculum development and setting up an administration. Plus, they didn’t get licensure in Florida where they were operating. They promised degree programs but did little more than outline them. I quickly became frustrated that there was “no there there.” When I discussed it with the state officials in Florida, I found they hadn’t even applied and missed a deadline for doing so. So, I left.

    I don’t know if MIGS ever enrolled any students. I know they didn’t graduate any. It wasn’t a degree mill. It was very much like the Empresarial situation.

    But no, no one was fooled by anything. Disappointed, sure. But not fooled.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    They did not. It was a legitimate attempt to leverage the degree-granting authority of a small Mexican university. Mexican authorities didn’t care what the school issued outside of Mexico (sound familiar?). This was all new to everyone.

    Did you know that the International Handbook of Universities actually included MIGS in its listing for the CEU? They did. Back then, before foreign degree evaluation services, being listed in the IHU was considered an authoritative indication that the school was to be considered comparable to accredited schools in the US. So, no. It wasn’t a scam and it wasn’t a diploma mill. It was naive effort to create a school.
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Sheila is still "Danzing" around... at her own site www-(her name)-dot com and a couple of other business sites.
    Sample: "A FREE special report by Sheila Danzig explains how you can become newsworthy and how your business can receive free publicity."
    Yeah - like um - previous ventures. Some things (and people) never change. Another one of her sites is "The Degree People" dot-com. OML! :rolleyes:
  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Wow! Berne / Bernelli? That's back before my time - but of course I read of it, once I got started here. And yes, For some of those who had high hopes - my sympathy. Anybody who read what was in the cards here - probably knew better. And if they knew, but tried to slide by (as lots do) then no sympathy - no refund.

    Lots of scams then, that are gone now. Like the 27 Distance Universities of Chhatisgarh, India (enough H's?) that offered ridiculously low fees (by our standards) - until all 27 were ordered closed, by the State Government of Chhatisgarh. KA-BOOM. Bhagavaan mahaan hai! (I'm told that's how you say "Allahu Akbar" in Hindi.) :)

    You've got me mystified on this African(?) connection, Garp. I do remember a recent three-legged thingy - Mexican, Nicaraguan and Swiss - I said something like "OK for coffee -if you like mocha - but not schools." But that's not the one, right?

    A while ago (3+ years?) there was an African school. I forget the name but it was 100% legit in its own country, and it partnered up with University of Wales. Uni of Wales would teach a distance MBA to their students at a very good price break. It was strictly for African students or those from other less-developed countries. There was some griping by a small handful of people here who thought the price-break should be for US, Canadian and other fat cats too. I was among the dissenters to that idea.

    Was that the one? Or if not, do you have any other details? It's intriguing. :)
  18. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Speaking of sympathy, I remember reading a classic response on another (long-gone) forum. A graduate of Preston University in Pakistan found his degree was not acceptable to authorities. He asked "What should I do with my un-useful degree?"

    Preston was created in Wyoming, as a "we don't need no stinkin' accreditation" creature of the Wild West. Subsequently the new sheriff in Town (Cheyenne) proclaimed an "Accredit or Die" law. I don't believe Preston could have attained recognized US accreditation on a BET, so it moved to Alabama, where it was licensed, but unaccredited. (A few years later, Alabama declined to renew that type of license.) A gentleman named Abdul Basit was a partner in Preston. He was previously V.P. of WAUC, the late Dr. (real degree) Maxine Klein Asher's "accreditation" shop. (Lots on the late Dr. Maxine on DI - that research is fun. Highly recommended.)

    Mr. Basit was, I believe, a native of Pakistan - and he created a Pakistani presence for Preston and served as "Lord of the Nine (Preston) Campuses." Over the next decade or so, these nine were whittled down to nearly zero by Pakistan's HEC (Higher Ed. Commission.) Preston had a thing going. They offered "Fine American Degrees" - diplomas from the unaccredited Alabama "Uni." Students found their "degrees" were "American" but not "fine." Preston US is long gone, now.

    What did that forum moderator say, to the man who enquired about his "un-useful Preston degree? Two words. NO! Not those two! :eek: He simply retorted:
    "Smoke it." Man, that's cold! The DL forums were a rough place in the old days!
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
  19. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    I was thinking of Euclid University (Central African Republic and Belgium). The Ministry of Education of the CAR accredits it. Degrees awarded by participating institutions and in quite a number of fields. I think no one is quite sure what to make of it and it got removed from mill lists but again no one seems to be certain about it. I suppose Foreign Credential Evaluations will help if anyone ever gets one.

    I wouldn't jump in with my money and time because it is opaque.
  20. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Right. I wouldn't jump in either. Partly because I too, don't know if anything good would come of doing so. Although the University in Bangui is legitimate - and I believe Euclid is affiliated in some way that lends it (Euclid) credence (but no clearwater or revival) in Africa - I still wouldn't go to Euclid because the CAR is not my favorite country and I mistrust things in CAR. It's not ex.actly been a bastion of freedom. Remember The Central African Emperor, Jean Bedel
    Bokassa I ? The guy who had about a hundred schoolkids mowed down by gunfire when they protested about the onerous expense to their parents - on having His Supreme Ugliness Bokassa's picture on their uniforms? It was a long tiime ago - but I still don't like the CAR.

    Fr. Cleenewerck was the American presence of Euclid for a long time. he may still be, I'm not sure. He was a bona-fide academic and - I think, a sincere OK guy. He taught at a RA school in California IIRC. But I still don't like that school. Brrrr.

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