Why is B&M academia often unwilling to hire a DL doctorate holder?

It is not just publishing, publications should be in recognized top tier journals to be taken seriously. It is highly unlikely that a top journal would publish someone with a PhD from an unknown place or a part time adjunct working for UoP or NCU. The editors from the journals are as bad as B&M faculty and won't take seriously an article submitted by an individual that cites UoP as their place of academic employment.

If you manage to publish articles in MIS quaterly, IS Journal or IS research, you will be offered faculty positions even if your degree is from UoP but chances are that you won't be able to do this and not so much because you might not have the brain but because you need the connections to get started in these journals that have very selective audiences.

 

So is there an implication that DL Doctoral programs do not teach the same research and writing skills that B&M programs do? Is that why DL docs don't publish?

I don't have a doctorate, so I'm just taking notes at this point!

-Matt

 

Sorry for my assumption you were referring to K-12 public school education. I surely can’t speak for California private education, but in Texas K-12 public school district school finance, the largest expenditure by school districts is payroll spending (anywhere from around 75-90% of total budget). Any economics, e.g., districts looking for ways to deal with the anticipated funding shortfalls (10% for 2011-12), that will influence payrolls is considerable. BTW, Texas public school system is the fifth-largest employer in the world with 646,815 employees; it is behind Wal-Mart Stores Inc., China National Petroleum, State Grid Corp. of China and the United States Postal Service (re Austin-American Statesman PolitiFact Texas | Dan Patrick says Texas school districts, all told, are the world's fifth-largest employers).

A few Texas ISD payroll examples:

Georgetown ISD: Eighty-seven percent of budget is payroll
Houston ISD: Seventy-six percent of budget is payroll
Dallas ISD: Eighty-five percent of budget is payroll
San Antonio ISD: Eight-five percent of budget is payroll
Lubbock ISD: Eighty-four percent of budget is payroll
Pasadena ISD: Eighty-five percent of budget is payroll
Beaumont ISD: Eighty percent of budget is payroll
Huntsville ISD: Seventy-six percent of budget is payroll
Arlington ISD: Eighty-seven percent of budget is payroll

With State K-12 education funding being reduced (as is also post-secondary education), it will be compulsory for school districts to implement RIFs in the classrooms, central offices, and maintenance and operations personnel; as well as pay scale reductions and other creative options for reducing payrolls. And the “sack-dragging” from districts (i.e., increased solicitation for grants, business financial support, etc.) will be really revving up into overtime.

 

Publishing takes forever. A good journal might require several revisions before the article is accepted and add years to the requirements. This is just too inconvenient for DL doctorates that sell the idea that you can finish your doctorate in a short period of time. Even one article as a requirements would low even more the graduation rates they have and discourage many from registering. It is just too inconvenient and against the money making model they follow.

Schools are selling the idea that anyone is cut to do a doctorate but very few in reality have skills to come up with ideas that might be accepted for publication. The original idea of doctorates was to create scientists that were capable of original research and not just a continuing education degree that is meant for everyone like the MBA.

 

I haven't read the thread fully but I get the jist.

So it's not the fact that you have a DL degree. It's not the degree that's the problem. It's the modality. Generally speaking the DL holder:

1. Is not going to conferences.
2. Is not networking with colleagues, both current and future.
3. Is not publishing multiple items with an advisor as well as working on their dissertation which in itself should be broken down into multiple publications, presented at conferences where networking happens.

So you don't know as many people coming out of a DL program and as a result you don't have as many people vouching for you.

So the program itself gets the blame for not "preparing" students adequately. What they're really saying is "I don't know who the heck you are so you couldn't be anyone worth hiring."

Nuff said.

ITJD

 

Like ITJD, I haven't read through this entire thread but I think it's important to point out that in many fields, even holders of B&M doctoral degrees are having trouble getting professorships. So, if I am a new PhD in Clinical Psych from Clark University

Clinical Psychology Program | Psychology Department | Clark University

I am applying to every single faculty opening in the USA and I'm having trouble even getting an interview. This is an established APA accredited program. I'm willing to relocate, I'm willing to teach Psych 101, I'm willing to do whatever but all the kids from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Brown, Stanford, Michigan, etc. are going to get the first looks. So what chance does a PhD from NCU have in this hiring environment? Zero? Maybe not zero but it goes to infinitestimals.

Infinitesimal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Adams, J. & DeFLeur, M. (2005). The acceptability of a doctorial degree earned online as a credential for obtaining a faculty position. The American Journal of Distance Education, 192 (2), 71-85.

http://www.pilotmedia.com/adams/xPDF/DLDoctorate.pdf

 

Nice citation. This is sure to come up again in future threads.

 

These discussions are borderline mind numbing. Let’s see, I have one person with a PhD from UF and one with a PhD from Capella. Who should I pay that $150K to…let me think. Is a study or some back and forth here really required to make a selection? I would pick the UF person. Now the next question – would the UF PhD holder take the position for $70K? I am sure (or pretty sure) the Capella grad would.

The question is would the salaries continue to remain high when schools can now pick from a different crowd of PhD holders? I would not imagine anyone in their right mind would say a B&M PhD is equal to a DL PhD. I have said, and will continue to say, all factors must be considered and that includes experience.

 

This is old news, but it confirms what we have all been saying; if you want to be a professor, don't earn an online doctorate. I doesn't appear that anyone is arguing that point, unless I missed a post somewhere.

As I have been saying, sorry if I'm driving everyone crazy with this, is that there are other motivations for earning a doctorate aside from being a professor. So what if it's not quite on par with a B&M degree from an upper tier school? It still required a massive dissertation and you are still an expert in your area of study; there are many individuals who will respect that outside of traditional B&M academia.

 

I'd say schools are selling the idea that anyone is cut to earn a degree in general. Heck, AMERICA is pushing the idea that everyone needs to go to college, and that's just not correct.

-Matt

 

We seem to have this same discussion every few weeks. Peppered within these discussions are a number of misconceptions. Below are some observations garnered from 23 years working in higher education institutions (21 in the non-profit sector), sitting on numerous hiring boards, presenting at multiple conferences per year, and sitting on the editorial board or two scholarly journals.:

--Not all B & M doctorates are the same, nor are all DL doctorates.
--Not all universities (or even the same departments within the same university) have the same requirements for hiring, promotion and tenure of their faculty.
--The vast majority of full-time college faculty do not make over 100K per year.
--DL doctorates were designed for mid-career professionals, not for newly minted masters degree holders looking for that first assistant professor position.
--It is true that DL doctorates have the lowest acceptance for new full-time tenure-track positions at B & M universities. However, they currently have very high acceptance in higher education for those already employed by the college or university. Many faculty and administrators hired with masters degrees have attained DL doctorates for successful tenure & promotion, as they were not required to quit their positions.
--For most "teaching" universities, publishing in peer reviewed journals is sufficient. Not all (or even the majority) of programs require their faculty to publish exclusively in "top tier" journals. If that were the case, the other journals would not still be in business.
--While I am not yet seeing those affiliated with NCU or TUI presenting at conferences and publishing in journals, I am seeing more and more from Capella, Walden, Western Governors and UMUC.
--Since peer-review in journals is typically "blind," meaning that the reviewers do not know the identity or affiliation of the authors, manuscripts are rejected based on the lack of quality of the article, not based on where one received his or her degree.
--There is no empirical evidence of the inferiority of education (including at the doctoral level) delivered at a distance.

Again, just a few observations...

 

Basically what you are saying is that the online PhD from DL institutions is replacing the MBA from a better school.

As MBAs are now a dime a dozen, with the same money that before was giving me an MBA, I could get a PhD.

We are basically inflating credentials but the job is the same. An adjunct job as an instructor does not require a PhD as you are not required to conduct heavy research but only teach concepts that are covered in a typical MBA program.

However, as you can get a PhD for the same price, you might as well get one as it would look good also in your catalog.

Credential inflation is not good to anyone, people are required to spend more money and time to get the same thing. The only ones making the money are the schools and not the students.

 

In theory yes, in practice it is not a secret that top journals would filter based on the university affiliation and other factors. I know this because many times we need to put professors as second authors from better schools to get a chance to publish in a good journal. The review in blind but you are still required to give your affiliation when you submit your article so the editor can use this as a filtering mechanism.

Publishing in a peer review journal that has little impact is not a real challenge, you have journals that high have acceptance rates and charge publication fees. Publication in this type of journals wouldn't impress anyone. Most AACSB accredited schools have a list of journals they use for hiring purposes, anything outside that is not taken so seriously.

Again, I'm talking about business here, the vast majority of professors at AACSB accredited schools make more than 100K. Actually, most start at least at 100K as this can be found at any AACSB salary survey.

 

Yes it does, doesn’t it? But if you like, please feel free to post more recent research-based information...:icon16:

BTW, here’s some additional personal insight as regards this topic by SteveFoerster (2009) (re eLearners.com: Is the online doctorate respected?).
Is The Online Doctorate Respected? - Economics PhD By Distance - Economics PhD by Distance - eLearners.com Community: Online Education and Distance Learning Discussion Forums & Blogs

 

But what about an online Doctorate in Beating a Dead Horse?

 

I think we passed that six beating ago!

 

You’re absolutely correct…:sad6:

 

It's kinda my fault for starting this. Sometimes I just get this evil whim to see people rant. Keeps things lively around here! :smile:

 

Thank you, Dr. P, for the voice of reason. I didn't start this thread with the intent of beginning another round of DL doctorate bashing, although, in retrospect, I must ask myself what else I would have expected.

It's interesting that the arguments keep coming up as though someone on the thread was expecting to land a first-time professorship with a DL doctorate, but I don't think anyone here is expecting to accomplish that feat. I really appreciate your suggestion, similar to mine, that DL doctorates are intended for other purposes than first-time professorship positions. There are other fish in the sea!