Why is B&M academia often unwilling to hire a DL doctorate holder?

Not requiring a doctoral degree for CC teaching may change in the future if majority of job applicants hold a doctorate degree. Like what Indiana State (Indiana Online Degree | Indiana Online University | WGU Indiana) has done in partnership with WGU, I think that in the future, CCs may start requiring faculty members to hold doctorates; where members can get it cheaply through partnerships with cheap DL schools or other state schools. Universities in Indiana are not expensive. WGU is a far cheaper alternative to residents who need an affordable education. Overall, I foresee more states or even companies doing this.

 

I have taken a lot of classes at TUI (MS-ITM when it was the noon-profit Touro and now an MBA) and think I may test this. I think I will turn in crap and see what happens.

 

Question - what if the second paper was no better then the first? Do they just have the opportunity to keep resubmitting until they get it right?

 

As traditional B&M universities, in particular state supported, are forced to financially adjust to long-term economic declines and the chain-reaction down turn in tax revenues, universities are disaggregating faculty instructional activities; this involves a deliberate division of labor among faculty, creating new kinds of instructional staff, and/or positioning non-tenure track instructional staff (such as adjunct faculty, graduate teaching assistants, or undergraduate assistants)—consider that post-secondary industry demand for DL PhDs may possibly increase somewhat (?). Nevertheless, the traditional doctorate holder will still be readily available in an already glutted and deflated degree value PhD marketplace.

In reality, traditional universities are becoming more like distance learning universities and not the opposite. Add that pension obligations—tenure assurances—most long-term contracts of previous stability, as in all business sectors (private and public), are being dismantled as our society implements a deleveraging of what Barbara Ehrenreich’s book Nickel and Dimed refers to as (YOYO); you’re on your own! Conclusion … the distance learning awarded PhD holder, if afforded the opportunity, will educate for less than their traditional counterpart, and the conventional institution hiring authorities are well aware of this significant financial detail…

 

SurfDoctor,

Not an implication to be objectionable or discouraging at all (and I sure don’t possess a doctorate); yet, with California’s on-going financial woes (a current budget deficit of $25.4 billion with a $19 billion projected operating deficit just in 2011–12; along with its proposition 98 and K-12 education—recent payment deferrals would translate into K–14 cuts almost double the level otherwise needed in 2011–12.); please don’t count on such an increase in your salary level and ROI merely because of an anticipated EdD /PhD and possible promotion opportunity. “Governor Brown has indicated that deeper spending cuts are likely, including at least $2billion to K–12 education” (re Public Policy Institute of California California's State Budget: The Governor's Proposal (PPIC Publication)).

As an inspiring to be school principal, an EdD /PhD is far from essential … again, a further example of degree deflation. The doctorate in education will not essentially make one a better campus instructional leader … or leader for that matter.

Re: The Legislative Analyst's Office (LAO); the 2011-12 Budget: California's Fiscal Outlook
The 2011-12 Budget: California's Fiscal Outlook

Note: Your indication that the additional knowledge you’ve gained through doctorial research work is personal reward enough is practical as regards your most important inspiration in pursuing the higher degree. :usa2:

 

This was not a written policy but was part of the training. I was required to grade a crappy paper as part of my training and provide feedback. I failed the paper and provided feedback. I was told that I should offer the student to resubmit when the student failed. There were no exams beside canned papers assignments so my guess is that is pretty hard to fail these courses.

As an instructor you don't want to work double for the handsome sum of $50 dlls per student, so my guess is that most wouldn't bother to fail a student to avoid the double work. If the work is really crappy, I believe that the school would not mind if you fail the student but they want you to be aware that they are sensitive about this.

I did not know that you have a degree from TUI, this comment was not directed to you but my experience with the school.

To be honest, I never got to teach for them as the pay was too low and I felt that the school did not have academic standards.

Perhaps other people have different experiences with them but I just did not have a good feeling about this school.

 

I did not take it as directed towards me. I have gotten my share of "B" and "B-" so I know it is all not an easy pass. The work I submitted was good so I got grades that were fair. There are standards and have gotten dinged for turning in work that was not as good as other work.

 

Yep, but once your learned to talk English good, can't nobody change that.

 

I was just talking to my mom about this the other day. She is a retired professor of education at a B&M state university. She said they could not hire people with DL doctorates in the education department because of accreditation issues. Granted, she's been retired for a couple of years, and she wasn't sure if there was a difference in B&M DL docs or for-profit online docs, but she was positive there was a stipulation in their national accreditation that prohibited DL doctorates from being tenure track.
The thing to remember is that the academy is snobbish and loves their hierarchy. Even an Ed.D., D.B.A., or D.P.A. will be looked down upon by the Ph.D. in academe. I am surprised that you all are surprised that they would, of course, look down on anything nontraditional.

 

The school I teach at is a high-end, private school that is not affected by the state budget woes. Moreover, our enrollment is up and not down, so there is no danger of that final column in our pay matrix being canceled. Even in the public schools, very few teachers qualify for that final column in the pay matrix, so cutting it would not be a way to save any significant amount of money. The cutbacks will go after the big expenses, not the insignificant ones. As I said before, I have been in the business many years, know many teachers and know of only one who holds a doctorate. Even though the state is in crises, the pay matrix issue is fairly safe. Although I admit that nothing is perfectly safe.

As for getting a doctorate to become a principal, you are right; it is not required. However, the reason that I know of very few doctorate holders that are teachers is the fact that they all got promoted either to principal or some other administrative position. Though I don't know them personally, I know of a number that were moved into directorate positions in the Dept of Ed when they got their doctorate.

 

major56,
Also, thanks for posting that report from the LAO, that was very informative. I notice on there that the Prop 98 minimum funding for K-12 schools was overridden for the past couple of years by a "super-majority" of the state legislature. That was a rare act of cooperation. That override is set to expire at the end of 2012 and funding for K-12 at that point must increase. Only another super-majority vote can squash those minimum funding issues again and, if the economy that is forecast to slowly improve holds in, schools should begin to receive a little more funding.

 

The University of Michigan has one of the most famous and successful college football teams in history. The Michigan Wolverines football program:

- has history and heritage dating back to the nineteenth century;
- recruits only the highest-performing high school players;
- has a large staff of full-time coaches to develop those players;
- provides top-notch training and playing facilities;
- competes at the highest levels of NCAA play.

But hold on! The Ann Arbor campus isn't the only one with a football team! There is also a club football team, known as the "Kodiaks", at the University of Michigan's Flint campus. However, the Flint program has a few differences relative to the Ann Arbor program. The Flint program:

- was established in 2010;
- allows any interested student on the team;
- has part-time and volunteer coaches;
- plays at the local high school stadium
- competes with other club teams outside of the NCAA

Now, these are both University of Michigan football programs. But do you really think that they are equally likely to send players to the NFL ?

*****

DL PhD programs are in the same kind of position as Michigan-Flint. They:

- have no history or heritage (yet are competing against B&M schools that do);

- have a reputation for admitting practically anyone (yet are competing against B&M schools that are famed for their high selectivity);

- use part-time, poorly-paid adjunct profs with little to no academic reputation (yet are competing against B&M institutions with full-time, highly paid, profs that are well known as authorities in their respective fields);

- provide little or no access to anything that cannot be delivered by Internet (yet are competing against B&M institutions that offer libraries, conferences, guest speakers, laboratories, etc.);

- typically lack the most respected and prestigious forms of accreditation (yet are competing against B&M institutions that have AACSB, ABET, APA, ABA, and everything else).

In a competitive academic job market (and the market for good academic jobs is now very competitive), a PhD from a DL school has little or no chance. It simply isn't in the same league, just as the Michigan Kodiaks are not in the same league as the Michigan Wolverines.

 

I think this pretty much sums up the discussion. It is like saying because one finished an accredited MBA, one could get a financial executive job at Wall street.


I have a friend that he lives in San Diego and finished his DBA at United States International University. He owns a couple of grocery stores and he did his DBA because he wanted to teach on the side. He told me that he would never get a tenure track with a degree from USIU because the poor reputation of the University. NCU, Walden, TUI are in the same basket as USIU and other low tier Universities that have little recognition in academia. What makes the DL institutions better than low tier institutions? Why people would think that because they go to NCU, they would get better chances than going to USIU?

 

I believe it is who you know that counts for a lot when seeking a faculty position. Most doctorates I know working academia are in engineering or science positions and they tell me the key is networking and getting acquainted with the right people. My daughter-in-law works as a post doc, obtains her own grants, attends conferences world wide, and receives unsolicited faculty job offers occasionally.

I also know around a dozen business doctorates (mostly DL) but they work for non-academic aerospace organizations (business, govt, and not-for-profit).

 

Very good; my point exactly. I doubt that those individuals would consider their doctorate earned via DL as worthless.

 

I concur with most of what you are saying. I doubt that there are many individuals, at least not those that frequent DI, who expect to land a professorship with a doctorate earned online. Most would agree that they are not in the same league as top tier schools. However, that does not mean that they are easy to do or that they are worthless. Attaining a doctorate at one of the good online schools is still a herculean effort and few individuals are actually up to the task. Maybe many start but very few graduate. A DL doctorate, while not in the same league with a top tier B&M doctorate, is still valuable and something to be proud of.

It seems likely that a doctorate will become exclusively required for even lowly adjunct jobs in the near future. Some people do not have any goals higher than that. Not everyone is interested in a life in academia or a professorship. One of the less expensive DL doctorates might work well for attaining a low level adjunct job. I know Liberty's is only around $28K, a low price tag like that makes sense when going for a low paying job.

 

Sorry for so many posts here. I believe that publishing is the key. I would assume, I have no empirical evidence to offer, that a DL doctorate holder who manages to successfully publish and present at conferences could overcome some of the DL stigma.

 

Yes, in metropolitan areas seem to be the case. I believe that this is the main market for low tier doctorates that is people looking for adjunct work on the side.

The market for adjuncts is explosive, you have an increasing demand for education and you also have an increasing demand for cheap adjunct labor.

One could make a living as an adjunct, I made a living doing this for about 2 years making something near 80K that might be comparable to a day time job.

People are also seeing the online doctorate as a way to become a self employed faculty consultant.