Very unusual Doctorate at Harrison Middleton University (DETC school)

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by anngriffin777, Mar 20, 2014.

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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Yes, when you run out of arguments supporting your position, switch to lame sarcasm that isn't very funny, and it mis-states the opposing viewpoint.

    What part of critical thinking does that come from?
  2. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    I've misstated nothing, and I haven't "run out of arguments". That's laughable, edged out only by the carnival barking of the NA doom squads.

    People can claim NA degrees are useless/have no value/blah blah blah until they're blue in the face and their head explodes, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a blanket statement that isn't anywhere close to the 100% accuracy many of those people want to make it seem it is. The fact that I'm making light of how ridiculous it is that people act like getting an NA degree is some sort of death sentence is apropos.

    As far as the joke itself, some found humor in it. But I wouldn't expect you to, being the curmudgeon that you are.

    The part where I don't have a stick up my butt. I'd suggest you try it, but elective surgery to remove a stick—as needed as it clearly is in your case—is not typically a decision I like to influence...
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Ah, I see we're switching from lame sarcasm to ad hominem. This is another critical thinking error. But I'm going to pass on responding to that and just stick with your arguments.

    I've been posting on this board since its inception. It is extremely rare for anyone to take the position you describe. You're creating a rhetorical strawman and arguing with yourself about it.

    Let's see, who around here has a Ph.D. specializing in nontraditional higher education? You know, someone who's done actual research on this very topic. Oh, that's right, me. That makes me one of three credible sources of research--all published--that say degrees from nationally accredited schools are less acceptable than their counterparts from RA schools. And no amount of complaining is going to change that. I covered employers. The other two are John Bear, who surveyed admissions officials regarding the acceptability of credits and degrees from NA schools, and DETC itself, whose surveys have always illustrated the difficulties their schools' graduates have in getting their degrees accepted for employment and higher study at RA schools. Thems the facts.

    Now, it's unfortunate that this even has to be argued (yet again), but graduates and students of NA schools insist upon tilting this windmill. I'd be on their side if they weren't so blatantly adamant about their fake facts (when they have any facts at all). Seriously. I like DETC-accredited schools, but I also recognize the real facts as they've been delivered (for years). So here's a few you cannot refute:

    -- Degrees from DETC-accredited schools are sometimes not acceptable to employers.
    -- Degrees from DETC-accredited schools are sometimes not acceptable to regionally accredited schools.
    -- The extent to which these two are true is a moving target. From year-to-year we simply don't know it precisely. But it certainly hasn't gone away.
    -- The only people wanting to argue this have a vested interest in the outcome: students and graduates of DETC-accredited schools. The rest of us would rather examine the intricacies related to the question instead of staking out an intellectually vulnerable and indefensible position.

    The utility of a DA from HMU is still an intriguing question. Have anything on the topic of this thread?
  4. Petedude

    Petedude New Member

    All good points, and as you're aware, you're largely correct. . . until. . . you start imputing motives at the end.

    I'm not a DETC student, and I will argue points regarding these schools because-- I am a connoiseur of distance learning and I feel diversity brings strength, particularly in pursuits like education. Also, on an economic basis, DETC schools provide some competition to keep NA schools "on their toes", so to speak. I would imagine RA tuition would be even worse without low-cost DETC competition. I also believe DETC schools bring a few interesting programs and approaches (e.g. HMU, Aspen, etc.) that we might not have otherwise.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2014
  5. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't go this far, we can leave it short and state that the degree can be proudly displayed in a business card or a nice frame in an office but cannot be used for teaching neither would help you to back up a research proposal for a grant from a government agency.

    This type of degree seems to be targeted towards people that just want to do it for personal improvement or people in private practice that might want to use the title doctor to get more business.

    One might argue that is not worth it from the financial point of view but the same can be argued for any PhD in History, Arts, etc from a RA school.

    Some argue that it is very expensive and might be cheaper to get a PhD from a UK school by publication or from another school, but the other issue to consider is how demanding the doctorate is compared with other doctorates. I am not saying the DETC doctorate is substandard but my guess is that it wouldn't be as demanding as any PhD from a better school that is meant to train scholars.

    The market might be tiny but it might be enough for some.
  6. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    I've "switched" nothing. The fact that you consider me calling you a curmudgeon "ad hominem" is your delusion as you clearly are unable to see yourself as everyone else sees you. I feel pretty confident in saying that my description agrees with consensus, as it's a widely-held observation based on your own words over many years. You just come across as unpleasant often, and that's not news to anyone who has read your postings over the years. But you're free to delude yourself to the contrary as you wish.

    The condescension just never stops. There's also comedy in that statement given the counter-argument you keep making against an argument I never made, lol.

    Talk about nonsense, lol. I'm not really arguing with you or anyone else about this, and you specifically are arguing just to be arguing like you often do. I'm making light of the whole thing now because it's just that silly. And yes, RFValve, I did go that far because this constant attack on NA schools with Rich's constant focus on the DETC, is silly enough to warrant going that far, whatever "far" is supposed to mean in the context of an obvious joke that wasn't meant to be taken seriously...

    Rich, you're just attaching labels like "strawman" etc. to anything I say without any real substance to the label, because you're an argumentative person who can't stop himself from trying to find fault with everything. Just look at the posts you made to me in this thread prior to this page, lol. You just can't help yourself.

    I won't even get into your ego-stroking about your Ph.D. or your research, which is an aside from the main truthful point: NA degrees do have value and there is plenty of evidence of that. Even DETC degrees. Yep, even DETC degrees. Are there some utility issues? Sure. Did I ever say there weren't utility issues? No. Never. What part of my position which has been clearly expressed countless times here and in the past, are you not understanding? I don't know, but you continue to argue at me like some kind of crazy person as if I haven't acknowledged some of the utility issues of an NA degree. That's the real problem here. You're not listening, you're just arguing.

    Okay, so let's address your perpetual focus on the DETC despite the fact that the DETC is just one of many NA accreditation bodies:

    Your undying hatred towards the DETC--which gives one the impression that they passed you over for a position or did something else to you at some point in the past and you're still holding a grudge--is well noted and also tiresome. Let it go already. Besides, the NA spectrum is much larger than the DETC, so if all of your words on this subject are focused on them and your research is all focused on that one channel, let's be honest, it's shoddy and boutique research to begin with. If you didn't constantly single the DETC out I would think differently, but your own words over the years indicate an agenda and makes your research motive questionable. Other people see it:

    But, you don't realize that because your delusion has disconnected you from being fully self-aware of how you present yourself. Or, maybe you are fully aware of it, and if so then that's just, well, frightening.

    I have nothing more to say on your nonsense, but I walk away laughing with just a tiny morsel of sadness because I know that no matter what anyone says to you, it won't make a difference. You're going to be you to the end, and I actually do respect that, but I at the same time choose not to be driven crazy by it.
  7. Petedude

    Petedude New Member

    Huh? Rich is correct in that DETC degrees may not get you jobs. On his second point, it's a well-documented fact that the majority of regionally-accredited schools will not accept DETC bachelor's credits for transfer or for master's programs. As to the third point he called out, he's also correct. There's been a fair amount of shift back and forth on these issues over the last few years as schools change their minds about the acceptability or lack of for NA degrees.

    As to his points for motivation-- I've not attended a DETC school yet (unless you count WGU). I am not backing Rich's general distaste towards NA schools. I am merely pointing out: 1) he is correct in that DETC degrees may have limited utility (a point that gets pounded on to no end on this forum, and is generally supported by factual research); 2) I do not have the motives he attributes for defending the right of DETC and other NA schools to exist.

    Like anyone else on this forum, Rich can be right about certain things and possibly have misdirected distaste towards other things. I don't see how that counts as delusion on my part.
  8. lawrenceq

    lawrenceq Member

    You guys still at it? Play nice!
  9. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    Sometimes when we argue we do it more to convince ourselves than to convince some "other" person. I don't think Maxwell has convinced himself yet. But do keep going, it's pretty entertaining.
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    It's not "you guys." It's one guy.
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm going to ignore the personal aspects of your post and focus on the points you attempt. No one seriously disagrees with what you just posted because it agrees with what most of us have said all along. But you insist on creating the strawman argument that some people say such degrees are useless, then argue against your own fake position.

    I'm not the only one who points out the "you haven't done an RA Ph.D." point; Levicoff does it all the time. The difference is that I've done on on this subject, with research regarding this exact question. You have not. That matters.
    DETC gets brought up so much because this is a distance learning board. That fact should be obvious, but I guess not. In fact, there aren't any real, practical differences between NA agencies on this question, with the exception that DETC-accredited schools are also listed in the DANTES catalog, which makes them eligible for military tuition assistance. That's about it.
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any? For the record, this isn't true. I would ask that you not do this.
    That would be welcome.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2014
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    According to CHEA there are only 99 DETC schools. And that includes duplicitous schools like Taft Law School and William Taft U (count as 2 not one). It could be argued that they have done a pretty good job getting recognized compared to the 7000 or so other schools.

    The NA RA argument is really DETC verse RA. 99 verse 7000.
  13. FJD

    FJD Member

    I get what you mean, and it's an honest mistake, but I'm sure Taft would not like to be called "duplicitous."
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Actually, there is absolutely nothing to argue about, except some hurt feelings from people caught up in this dilemma they've selected for themselves. The facts never seem to be contended.
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I'm an interdisciplinary humanities kind of guy myself. After doing my MA, I toyed with the idea of doing a doctorate and this was one of the schools that I thought about.

    Apart from cost, the school had a couple of features that I didn't like.

    First, I'm told (I might be wrong) that H-M doesn't want their students focusing their attention on or citing works by writers that aren't included in the GBWW series. The GBWW aren't typically the best translations of many of the works that weren't originally written in English. There are no end of relevant authors that aren't included at all. And obviously there's the absolutely massive secondary scholarly literature on everything. I just can't imagine writing about most of these authors without considering the intellectual context that shaped their ideas and how their writings were subsequently received and understood.

    And second, H-M's faculty list just seemed awfully light to my eye. I mean, who are these people and why should they be teaching me, as opposed to me teaching them? What is their background in the areas that I was considering focusing on?

    The DETC thing that fascinates Degreeinfo so obsessively didn't really feature very prominently in my considerations. If I was still in the market for a DL doctorate, I'd happily short-list a DETC (or ACICS or whatever) program, provided that it was affordable, offered subject specializations of interest to me and faculty members that I really wanted to study with. Of course, I'm not a young academic careerist in search of a tenure-track teaching job either. (If I was that, I probably wouldn't be thinking about distance learning at all.)
  17. scottae316

    scottae316 New Member

    Typical DETC thread here. While it is true that there is some limited utility with DETC degrees, it all depends on what you want or need. First, DETC degrees are very useful for mid-career people. They already have a position and only need the skills and knowledge a degree gives them. Some organization only pay for and/or recognize RA degrees, this is not as wide spread as some make it seem. For example, some large corporations will not pay for an MBA unless it is AACSB accredited. So all the other RA and NA schools with MBA's are now not good enough and do not have utility? Of course not, but according to the "logic" of some here if you want an MBA you should only go to AACSB school because you have no idea what your future holds. It depends on what you need now and for what you can see in the future.

    One thing that is often mentioned which is a HUGE strawman argument is that one can not teach in academial with a DETC degree. This is true, but the vast majority of people with DETC degrees (and RA degrees) have no interest in teaching. Add the fact that teaching jobs are very few and far between, I would question the ROI on pursuing a degree with the purpose of teaching as your goal.

    Some here have a bias against DETC/NA, while in the past there may have been good reason for this, it seems to be declining. Most DETC school graduates respond they are satisfied with the programs.
  18. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    The OP recently graduated or is soon graduating with a bachelor's degree and asked in other threads about the job market in adjunct college teaching.

    It's very reasonable to discuss the acceptance of an NA doctorate in the liberal arts to start a college teaching career when the OP is asking about an NA doctorate in the liberal arts, and was just asking about starting a college teaching career.

    Acceptance of DETC graduate degrees for college teaching positions is NOT a "HUGE strawman argument" in this thread. In this thread with this context it's clearly salient.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2014
  19. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    A doctor of arts degree is also not an MBA. If people are going to make the argument that not everyone going after this degree will want to teach, then please bring up an example of how this degree can be used outside of academia.
  20. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    This is true. But what's the point?
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