Unaccredited / State Approved!

I believe that to assume "Most" is a bit strong. "Some" would sound better to me, and on an individual basis neither would have much meaning. I would want to meet, or know much more about any person with a K-U degree before characterizing them with your or my description. Pain is hard to take back, but is easily given.

 

A very common topic for debate is the ratio of degree mill customers that are co-conspirators versus saintly victims. I think that the ratio differs from one degree mill to the next. I also think that a good percentage of the customers would fall more into the middle of that spectrum rather than on one extreme or the other. I also believe that publicly the degree mill customers have a tendency to portray themselves more on the innocent victim side of the spectrum, for obvious reasons.

 

Good point Bill,

I don't accept the fact that people send a "university" their work history/ background. Poof... get a degree and aren't suspicious that they have just enered the "degree mill zone".

Please.

 

Without a doubt if you do no work and take no tests, just give them your credit card number (Mill), but what about some level of study. Is 10 pages a final paper, 20, 50, 100? That my friends becomes the question for debate. John Bear puzzles over this in his guides. How much is enough? States puzzle over it as does RA, DETC, Approved, some of the self validated and absolutely none of the mills. To steal from John Bear again, what is one man's non-traditional education is another's mill.

 

Right, how many units does it take to make a valid Bachelor's degree? At the graduate level it gets even more controversial, especially at the doctorate level. The size of the dissertation shouldn't be the issue but the quality is what matters and there you require real peers in the field that can give a good assessment.

 

bullstuff, K5fk, a dissertation adds new information to the field. A mill dissertation is not published on any of the dissertation abstracts and dissertations from real universities are. The bottom line..10 pages...20 pages are not the issue. Creating new information that adds to the field is.

 

A Bachelor's is 120 semester credits. You don't get credit for life experience you get credit for verified learning. A master's is 30-45 semester credits. It is pretty clear exactly what a degree is. It is also clear what a degree mill is and what a substandard unaccredited degree is. Shessshhh! Reminders me of Bill Clinton!

 

I think you bring up an excellent point. Quality should come first, and then the question of how much information, quantity, must be in the paper. As to peer review, most seem to be internally supplied by the schools. There is peer review, in that outsiders may read and judge/comment on dissertations, but the schools make the final decision as to the acceptance or rejection of the paper. Do outside peers ever have any real input as to the rejection of a paper?

 

Is it necessary for you always to toss in the little insults? If you make valid points they aren't strengthened by these caustic remarks, but lead to the constant wars here. What is the point? It is possible to have conversation without turning everything into an exchange of name calling, and it would be much more pleasant, but if you find it necessary, I suppoose I can live with it.

 

I believe that in this context, peer usually means a Ph.D. in the same or related discipline. The peers make up the review commitee. The commitee can include doctors from outside the school but will typically primarily be made up from school staff. It is a bit of a misnomer I guess in that they are not the candidates peer at least not until the candidate successfully completes their defense.

 

You know, the bravery of some of us putting up with the rest of us--mon Dieu!--such nobility, such forbearance, yes, comrades, I am weeping, and I am not ashamed!

 

"Surely any school that will send you a Ph.D. by return mail on payment of $100, no questions asked, is a fraud. But what about a school that requires a 5-page dissertation before awarding the doctorate? How about 20 pages? 50? 100? 200? Who is to say? One man's degree mill is another man's alternative university. And nobody seems to want the government stepping in to evaluate doctoral dissertations before permitting schools to grant degrees. Would you want [ insert the name of your least-favorite politician] grading your thesis?
Quote: Dr. John Bear- Bears' Guide to Degrees by Distance Learning-15th edition, page 258

I made my loose quote to give a quick general description of the different views of distance education. In a small number of words it accurately shows the divide between those people with views on this subject. It is not a settled matter and never will be. If you check my original statement I took no position on this matter. How did it become a Bill Clinton comparison? The concept is not even mine, but I do agree with it, and its general view of the gulf between people as regards distance education.

 

So live that you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.

 

James

Nothing personal but I think the idea that it isn't clear exactly what a legitimate school is and what a degree mill is is WRONG. It takes very little knowledge to see exactly what K-W is. It is equally clear to see who the good guys are. If you want to suggest there are a few schools like CCU that stradle the line I would agree, but the total is less than a handful. Arguing otherwise reminds me powerfully of Bill's fiasco. If that offends you I think you need to wake up and look at things with a discerning eye. There may be hope for you yet!

 

A person may argue as it suits them without being compared to anyone other than themself. I suppose the discerning eye you describe would be your own, and the vision would also be the same. To see a thing from a particular view is no guarantee of its correctness. Bill Clinton was elected President twice though I never voted for him. Apparently there were others who saw a different vision of him. My viewpoint was different than theirs, and I believe them wrong, but they would disagree.

The most lovable quality any human being can possess is tolerance. It is the vision that enables one to see things from another's viewpoint. It is the generosity that concedes to others the right to their own opinions and peculiarities. It is the bigness that enables us to let people be happy in their own way instead of our way.

 

Tolerance is a fine thing, agreed. There are some things that really aren't open to opinion though. For example, physical laws or mathematical disciplines are not open to much opinion. I agree that when a label, e.g., degree mill, is applied is open to opinion. On the other hand, the requirements for a K-W degree are grossly substandard. This makes K-W grossly substandard. Admitedly people do get some utility out of K-W degrees but that is generally due to deceit and incompetence. What degree of the fault for the deceit falls on the alumni versus K-W, I believe differs from person to person.

To me these things are closer to facts than opinion. The only opinion I see is whether or not 21 credits compared to 120 credits is considered grossly substandard. I assume that even K-W alumni consider that comparison grossly substandard because they have never argued against that opinion on this board.

On the other hand (the third hand?) if by tolerance you mean that we should be tolerant of the ignorant person that argues that 1+1=3 then I guess that I need to agree.

 

Bill:

Do you honestly know someone who has a degree from KW with just 21 credits? Someone who has no educational background before coming there that only had to take 5 courses, or is this more exaggeration in order to further your point. If you can show me someone with no educational background whatsoever that was only required to take 5 courses at KW to receive a bachelor degree then I will say no more. You repeat this as if people at KW only require 5 courses for anyone. From what I have seen that is not true. If you have PROOF otherwise then show your hand.

 

Some posts ago I suggested that Kennedy-Western had a degree
of credibility that was considerably higher than some of the DegreeInfo RA Extremists had suggested. I now believe that my sentiments were endorsed by the recently completed DegreeInfo poll. This is also further supported by the very high enrolment figures being achieved by K-W, and by an increasing number of industries recognising K-W qualifications.
Dr Duck

 

You realize, of course, that any poll here is solely for amusement and/or informational purposes only?

Kennedy-Western is what it is, an unaccredited school with an incredibly slick marketing plan. The fact that some corporations accept and/or pay for K-W degrees says more about these companies not having the first clue about accreditation issues than anything else.

 

The poll is non-scientific.

The poll showed a huge rejection of Kennedy-Western.

Do you have any evidence that shows "an increasing number of industries recognising K-W qualifications"? As far as I know, there is no information about this available, other than Kennedy-Western's promotional efforts (which cannot be considered a reliable source).

My research shows that the acceptability of degrees from schools like Kennedy-Western drops when employers find out about their lack of accreditation. Hardly a promising situation for the potential graduate.

My opinion: Kennedy-Western's robust enrollments (speculated; no one really knows for sure if they're really robust) are due to a combination of incessant marketing and a stinky mix of gullibility and a desire to "get over" on the part of their customers. Just enough activity to appear, at first glance, like a university, seems to be enough to get a lot of people by. But to say that industry is growing in its acceptance of such things is disingenuos, at best. There is no reason to believe it to be true. Again, do you have anything that supports this notion? (And belies all of the other negative factors, like their tiny faculty, lack of accreditation, lack of any outside oversight, inability to enroll students from their home state, movement of their license several times, 5-course bachelor's degrees, etc.?)