Unaccredited PhD Poll

Yes, the process and value of the unaccredited doctorate are unknown beyond the school itself, and any desemination by the degree holder, not bad or good, just unknown; this is why the unaccredited doctorate is not the same as what was earned at a regionally-accredited school. Simple. This is not a particularly difficult concept to understand, I believe, yet some (not CalDog) seem to struggle with its comprehension in service to whatever personal demons they may be nursing. Yawn...

Dave

 

Dude, you're switching your units of analysis throughout your narrative, from CPU to unaccredited schools, and back and forth. This is illogical. Stick with CPU, some subset of schools or pick all unaccredited schools, which really isn't a sampling frame because they share no universally common attributes, except for not being regionally-accredited. Don't make your reader, who is trained in research methods, reach for the Advil. Thanks. Gotta go grade some papers now... Adios.

Dave

 

The bottom line is pretty simple to me - what ever works for someone else is fine. The proof will be how accepted the degree will be by people in the corporate world.

 

I guess it all boils down to this succinct point.

 

Duh....

PhD2B is right, this is pointless!

Good luck Brian!

Susanna

 

Unaccredited institutions generally are not part of the larger academic community. In addition to that I don't imagine that a dissertation from an unaccredited institution would likely ever be referenced by any accredited dissertation or rarely any other scholarly paper. Therefore, I'd conclude that unaccredited dissertations are not generally part of the academic based knowledge. So it seems to me that an unaccredited dissertations generally fail the test to further the academic knowledge of mankind. That being the case it seems that unaccredited doctorate programs fail a base requirement for completion of a doctorate.

 

No, they are not. There was a brief time when UMI (now operated by Proquest) accepted disseratations from unaccredited schools. However, they stopped because they cannot directly assess the worthiness of a dissertation from any school, accredited or not. So they rely upon accreditation as their means of determining acceptability. Just like the acceptability of degrees, and for the exact same reason: there is no way to tell if unaccredited schools operate with any semblance of academic standards.

 

This "fact" is not true. That is not the reason they're not listed by Dissertation Abstracts. The reason is that Proquest cannot directly determine the quality of any doctoral dissertation. With the number they receive each year, it is impossible to review them all. Thus, they use accreditation as a proxy.

This in no way indicates that because a dissertation was written at an unaccredited school it is a bad one. But it is normally assumed that one written at an accredited school isn't a terrible one. Thus, the floor is set.

While this is largely accurate, it is not necessarily true in all cases. There are many California-approved psychology programs, for example, that produce high-quality graduates who go on to careers in counseling and psychology. And schools like the Western Institute for Social Research operate with observable quality and academic rigor.

Finally, the statement "it's unlikely that anyone else is going to take it seriously" is so contra-indicated by observable facts. Unaccredited DL schools have been pumping out doctorates since the early 1970's. I suspect that these schools have been able to stay in business because their students find these degrees very usable. (If not, where's the consumer outrage?) Rather, it is better to look at why these degrees are usable.

Tangent follows

My take: most people assume someone's degree is from an accredited school. I'm always surprised to find people who don't even realize unaccredited schools exist, who think the government does accreditation, who think that if a school can get accredited it can't operate legally, and who don't even realize such a thing as a diploma mill exists.

The millists at the other boards--usually the idiotic James Crabb--often misconstrue the results of my dissertation when talking about this subject. They point to the results that show a lot of acceptance for unaccredited schools, but conveniently ignore the reasons why--and what happens to a lot of these degree holders when the sources of their degrees are discovered. They also ignore the real results of the dissertation--that the acceptability of degrees from unaccredited schools drops dramatically when employers find out about the schools' status.

End of tangent

This is a complicated subject, and simple, sweeping statements like the two I quoted don't normally capture it accurately.

 

Okay, one more and I'll leave it alone. Considering that this is a distance learning discussion board, it is not true. School who are players in this field typically do not require these tests. Why? Because they aren't valuable in determine the acceptability of a mid-career professional's application to study for an advanced degree.

Citing the requirement of these tests as being a sign of academic quality is misinformed.

Are there even any accredited DL universities who do require these exams?

Again, not a "fact" at all. Sorry.

 

Yes. For example, Penn State World Campus is an accredited DL university. Their distance MBA program requires GMAT scores for admission:

The University of Florida is another accredited DL university. Their distance MBA program normally requires a GMAT score, or an MS degree plus a GRE score. They only waive these requirements for applicants with PhD or MD degrees (probably only a small percentage of the applicant pool).

The University of Florida puts it like this:

So to return to my question, does anyone know if CPU, or more generally any unaccredited school, requires the GMAT, as at least some accredited DL business programs do ?

 

OK, I'll grant this point. But in cases where an unaccredited degree is considered qualifying for purposes of professional licensure, then successful completion of the licensing process serves as a form of independent "third-party validation". In other words, the degree, while not formally accredited, has an alternative form of validation that serves the same general purpose as accreditation.

 

No. Wrong. You cited two B&M schools that offer DL, not DL schools. Huge difference. DL programs at B&M schools often don't have the latitude to skip admissions exams--they're held to the school's procedures, even though those procedures are not designed to screen in the mid-career working professional.

Using the GRE or GMAT doesn't cost the school a thing. If it was valuable, or a sign of academic quality, why don't DL schools use it? Why don't unaccredited schools use it? They don't.

Sorry, but your response is way off the mark. Plus, it ignores one other, important detail: Requiring an admissions exam is not a sign of academic quality. It is simply the process of asking the applicant to sit for an exam (at his/her expense, of course) and asking the results be sent to the school. That's it. How does that add academic quality or rigor to a school's programs? It doesn't.


So, you cited irrelevant examples to support a point that has no merit otherwise. Then you ask a question that, frankly, you have backwards. Instead of asking whether or not any unaccredited DL schools require a GRE or GMAT, you should ask why any school--DL or otherwise, accredited or not--requires such an irrelevant thing when admitting mid-career professionals into graduate degree programs? If you could find such a thing, I would be surprised. But even if you did--and your two examples fail--a better question would be why they required it at all, not why all the others do not.

Finally, you even changed your own criteria. First, it was "For example, accredited schools normally require applicants to take the GRE, GMAT, or other standardized entrance exams." That changed to "at least some." This is a very convenient technique, where when one is caught in a mistake, change what one is saying to fit the newly discovered facts. This is lazy thinking, I'm afraid. Either stick by your original assertion--and support it--or acknoweldge your mistake and move on. Instead, you choose to ignore your mistake and change your tune. I guess, following that track, you'll have to do that several more times until what you say aligns with what is.

(NB: I'm not supporting the idea of attending schools like CPU, although I kind of like their little outfit. What I'm suggesting is that these issues require nuance and understanding. Sweeping statements like those we've seen on this thread are inevitably simplistic--and wrong.)

(NB2: I'd be fine with unaccredited schools not on an accreditation track if there was full knowledge about such things among employers and the general public. But there isn't, so most--IMHO--unaccredited degrees pass for accredited ones because almost no one checks. But when they do, you end up in the newspaper. Ka-boom.)

 

Dude, I fully agree that evaluating CPU specifically, rather than unaccredited schools generally, is the preferable course of action in this case. Unfortunately, CPU is not readily forthcoming with such data, as far as the casual web surfer is concerned.

I made a good-faith effort to visit www.cpu.edu, to look for basic information on the student body, the faculty, and the academic departments there. Perhaps I looked in the wrong place, but I was unable to find any meaningful documentation about the school. I have no clue about basic points like CPU's total enrollment, or their faculty qualifications -- material that accredited schools present on their websites as a matter of course. So these issues -- like so many other things about CPU -- remain unknowns.

In fairness, there may perhaps be answers in the CPU catalog -- but this is only available by request; it is not freely downloadable. I was reluctant to provide CPU with an email address, given that some unaccredited schools have a reputation for spamming and aggressive sales tactics. Perhaps this concern is valid, perhaps not. For now, it's just another unknown.

If CPU wants to be perceived as different from other unaccredited schools, then they need to provide the general public with some good reasons to make this distinction. I didn't find them on their website..

Not to mention that the music that plays every time you load a page is really annoying.

 

OK, I stand corrected. Unaccredited dissertations are not excluded from Dissertation Abstracts because they are considered inherently unworthy. Instead, they are excluded because there is no assurance that they meet a minimum standard of quality.

From a practical standpoint, though, the difference may not be terribly significant. The unaccredited dissertations are excluded in either case.

 

I think that CalDog's points were good ones.

Despite their countless doctoral programs, it's unusual to find researchers at non-accredited schools publishing their work (whether as dissertations or journal articles), being cited by their peers or collaborating with researchers at other institutions.

It's equally unusual to find an unaccredited school that has competitive admissions.

The few schools that do display these things are usually on an accreditation track.

Churning out doctors right and left, while playing no significant role in the intellectual life of their disciplines, seems to be evidence of something.

 

But then this raises the question: why aren’t B&M schools more flexible? Why do they still require admissions exams for their DL programs -- as well as other non-traditional programs, like night school -- if they are trying to attract to mid-career working professionals who don’t need them ?

I think I know the answer. But let’s continue and see.

It doesn’t? Yet if we look at, say, the US News & World Report rankings for colleges and grad schools (which, like it or not, are the most widely recognized such rankings), we will find a very strong positive correlation between ranking and test scores. This is not surprising, since test scores are typically an important component of such rankings.

Maybe this focus on test scores is justified, or maybe not. The point is that, like it or not, admissions exams are widely perceived to be meaningful. High scores make a school more selective and more prestigious.

And that’s why B&M schools like UF or Penn State require them, even for their non-traditional operations. They don’t want to hurt their brand.

I just did, and provided an answer.

Why do my two examples fail? The Penn State World Campus and UF programs that I cited are clearly non-traditional programs, they are clearly aimed at mid-career professionals, and they clearly require GMATs. You have argued that they really represent B&M programs, but that doesn't matter, since you specified “any school -- DL or otherwise” in the preceding sentence.

How about the UCLA “Fully Employed MBA Program” ? For working professionals (hence the name). Runs on nights and weekends to accomodate them. Requires GMAT for admission. Quite prestigious too.

My initial assertion referred to “accredited schools”, by which I was referring to all such schools (both B&M and DL). I think it’s fair to suggest that most accredited degrees do come from traditional B&M programs, which do require admissions exams.

You subsequently focused specifically on DL programs aimed at mid-career professionals. I agree that non-traditional programs, even from accredited schools, are less likely to require admissions exams. But I suspect that those that do (e.g. Florida, Penn State, and UCLA) are generally more prestigious and respected than those that don't (e.g. lower-tier accredited schools, unaccredited schools).

 

Repeating an error-filled argument doesn't enhance it. You're welcome to the last word.

 

When I talked to UMI years ago (about 2000, IIRC) they had just phased out allowing non-accredited dissertations to be listed. Note that they did not call them dissertations in the listing. Anyway, I was told that they discontinued the practice because their customers didn't want them listed because they were of unknown quality.

 

If Proquest didn't think that large numbers of non-accredited dissertations are substandard, then why would they believe that reviewing them is necessary? Why don't they just accept the degree-awarding process at the non-accredited universities as sufficient review?

I agree with Rich that the fact that work was done at a non-accredited school isn't in itself proof that the particular piece of work is inferior.

But... I agree with CalDog and Susanna that on average, work done at non-accredited schools is inferior.

That addresses Dave's point about units of analysis. While we may have no way of knowing for sure whether any particular piece of work (done at a particular non-accredited school) is inferior, it's nevertheless rational to presume that it likely will be, because on average (taking non-accredited schools as a class) most work is.

That's a rebuttable presumption, I guess, and that shifts the burden of proof to the proponents of individual non-accredited schools.

 

I have been proposing, for years, a Turing Test for dissertations. It would be so simple. March into two or more schools, at least one unaccredited, at least one regionally accredited. Randomly select five dissertations (or Master's theses) in a given topic from the shelves. Xerox them with school-identifying marks removed. Present them for evaluation to three or more experienced faculty in that field at other schools. Compare the evaluations.

There. Wouldn't that go a long way to answering the question? If I ever got involved with an unaccredited school again* that's one of the first things I would propose.

_________
* Don't hold your breadth.