Unaccredited PhD Poll

Here's another quandary. Which should I do, have the car run over my left foot, my right foot, hit my head with a rubber mallet, or if I can find my gun shoot myself in my left knee? Those are the only choices.

 

LOL

I choose the pile of crap in the northwest corner of the room because it stinks less than the crap in the other three corners of the room!

 

Now is that really called for???...I will take the rubber mallet option

 

Any job requireing a PhD would be the exception - I understand that less than 1% of the US population has a PhD.
I did a quick advanced search on Monster.com for PhD jobs and found several in just a few minutes including this one in economics paying $420,000 per year http://jobview.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=65214706&JobTitle=Interest+Rate+Exotics+Model+Development+Senior+Level+%24+420%2c000%2b&fn=540&fn=548&q=Ph.D.&brd=1&cy=US&vw=b&AVSDM=2007-11-12+19%3a02%3a00&pg=1&seq=12

 

Outside of academia, it isn't that common to require certain degrees in a job description. Doing so puts the burden on the employer to demonstrate the requirement is bona fide and, thus, the employer is in the clear to systematically exclude those not holding said degrees. Instead, you see a lot of use of the term "desired." This purports to allow for people with other, compelling qualifications to apply, but the employer isn't really required to consider them.

 

That's news to me about the aerospace industry. Has the day finally arrived when engineers need to have Ph.D.s? (That's not good.) Back in the good old days, engineers mostly had bachelors degrees, with masters degrees a career advancement thing. There were still WWII generation guys around too, with practical experience but no degrees. There was still a little of the old barnstorming spirit left in some aerospace companies. Today, the only place that culture seems to survive (intentionally so) is with Burt Rutan and Scaled Composites. (The guy who piloted SpaceshipOne into space on two of its three trips is a self-taught highschool dropout.)

The biotech industry suggests a point relevant to this thread. That industry is very Ph.D.-laden, because it's very research-intensive. But biotech companies aren't just looking for any generic doctorate. A Ph.D. isn't just a box that people check on an application. Companies are looking for scientists with records of creative work in particular specialties and technical problems related to the company's research efforts. So interviewers are going to be more interested in what applicants have been doing, in who they've worked with, in what they've published, than they are in accreditation (a subject that may never come up in an intervew). Of course, it's hard to imagine a domestic state-approved school that's prominent in any important research areas, though it's theoretically possible. Certainly graduates of NY-regents accredited Rockefeller U. and CSHL have no trouble finding positions.

I guess my point is that this kind of hiring is different than hiring low-end business adjuncts, where an RA Ph.D. might just be a check-the-box requirement. I can't imagine doctorates from the kind of schools in this poll doing very much for an applicant in these situations.

 

I believe that your guess is correct for a new hire situation. One exception might be for subject matter competence, when you have been hired on the basis of your RA masters degree; if you have written something about a particular sub-discipline for an unaccredited doctoral program, you might be the leading candidate asked to teach the subject, over others who are doctorally-qualified, yet have no direct experience.

Dave

 

None of the research institutions described in the post above are currently RA. But their legitimacy is not based exclusively on "state approval" either, unlike the schools listed in the poll.

- The only reason that the graduate programs at Burnham Institute have no recognized accreditation is because they are relatively new (established 2006). Burnham is currently a candidate for RA with WASC, and nobody doubts that they will succeed.

- Rockefeller and CHSL are accredited by the New York State Board of Regents & Commissioner of Education. This agency -- unlike those in other states -- has been granted recognition as a National Accreditation agency by USDOE; they offer optional accreditation services, in addition to the usual basic state licensing services. Rockefeller and CHSL are therefore officially NA, and they show up in the USDOE database of accredited institutions (unlike the schools in the poll).

 

I agree with that pretty emphatically.

They aren't a candidate yet.

http://www.wascsenior.org/institutions/

I agree that this place is a lock to become RA in record time. They may skip candidacy all together, as Keck and Soka did before them. But they are CA-approved at the moment.

My point was that if a degree program has real visible academic substance, then it might win favor with more sophisticated employers. Accreditation details will be less important than academic and research reputation.

But I don't think that any of the schools in this thread's poll come remotely close to clearing that hurdle.

 

The Burnham catalog (p. 6) states:

However, WASC does not appear to have granted them official "candidate" status.

 

First, thanks for all who participated by either voting and/or leaving a comment. I do apologize for the poll being perceived as being hair splitting and not very well constructed.

Respectfully Yours,
The Pollster

At this point in my life both RA/NA cost options are extremely prohibitive for me right now and before all of the RA or NA only advocates start to beat their drums - I apologize in advance for being poor.

I have been kicking the Ph.D or Psy.D question around for several weeks now. The issue for me is not so much of a "need to have it" but I "want to have it" and that the "want" must be rationale and affordable. I toyed with getting a graduate certificate in Managerial Leadership and enrolled with Rutgers but I really didn't like their program and in the end I just knew that I would probably still want to go after another degree; don't ask me why, I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.

I have come to the conclusion that, for me, the quest for a Ph.D is more of a personal pursuit and not so much of a professional one. Like I said, I don't need one - I want one, and for me an SA level degree is just fine.

That being said the "want" had to be financially justifiable to my Wife as our Daughter was just married in Augu$t [$$$] and our oldest son is graduating from U$F [go Bull$] next month. Of course we have to get through the Holiday$ and then we are celebrating our 25th Wedding Anniver$ary next May 1$t.

The solution to this "degree want" and "fiscal dilemma" may be found with what I believe is the singular best choice found at California Pacific University (www.cpu.edu) Ph.D in Management. Although CPU is accredited as an SA (State Approved) school, they are a legitimate/legal school with a long history and come with great reviews. CPU is not a mill, and I would NEVER consider a mill but they have what I "want" and can even fulfill a "need" too (that being personal enrichment).

I had nearly given up when I read this quote from Dave Wagner: Everyone should seek as much education as they can afford. Does it really matter if people who are less educated laugh at you? No, it doesn't. Only someone who is insufficiently educated would laugh at another person for seeking education. Always consider that becoming better educated, even if it is through a non-RA degree, is better than doing nothing at all. - Dave Wagner.

I just took it to the next level, did my research (not just a poll) on quite a number of affordable and reputable schools and made my choice. If I decide to forge ahead I should be enrolled with CPU by December.

Thanks once again to you all and Dave in Particular.

[COLOR="red]The Poor Pollster[/COLOR]

 

Congrats on making a decision that works for you. We all must make the best choice with what we have.

 

Glad to hear that you are moving forward, Brian; it is easy to get stalled with these sorts of decisions, and accomplish nothing, so moving forward is important.

One additional bit of advice is that when using the CPU Ph.D. in the future, you may want to disclose that it is a CA State-Approved degree and not regionally-accredited. When and if I include my CPU DBA in a biography sketch or resume, I do this.

The reason for disclosure is that most people assume that your degree is regionally accredited and my ethics tell me that I need to explain that it met all the legal standards as an RA degree and most (if not all) of quality requirements, but it is a slightly different credential: I knew far more about my topic than any of my committee members (mainly because the topic was very new and specialized), and they didn't subject me to a bunch of hazing and stupid delays.

All the delays in completing the DBA between 1996 (start) and 2003 (finish) were me doing the coursework, proposing, researching, writing, and defending. (I traveled to the campus to defend.) Smart people who have tried to earn or have earned an RA doctorate will ask and understand what you are telling them.

Stupid people will also reveal their educational bigotry and wholesale absence of common sense about these unaccredited degrees: a legitimate, unaccredited doctorate is sort of a metal detector for finding stupid people with whom you don't want to work...

Dave

 

Just be prepared to repeat the afore-mentioned many times in the future.

While there is a lot of truth in Dave's words, I would not take it as inspiration to forge ahead with a non-RA degree. These degrees remind me of cars with fast sounding exhaust systems that have four cylinder engines. It says something about you, like those little cars: "yeah I really wanted to keep up but I just didn't have what it takes". I don't mean you personally with that but the general perception that such degrees invoke.

If you do forge ahead, I hope that the degree* fulfills that which you hope to achieve.

Susanna

*non-RA degree

 

At this point in my life both RA/NA cost options are extremely prohibitive for me right now and before all of the RA or NA only advocates start to beat their drums - I apologize in advance for being poor.

 

Is this a bit dramatic? I guess you would consider every regional accredited institute a bunch of stupid people because they would not accept an unaccredited degree for employment as an instructor.

 

My own interpretation is simply that many people are just very rigid, inflexible, and perhaps just plain stubborn to accept anything less than an RA degree for themself and that this philosophy must apply to all.

Kind of the old "my way or the highway" type of thinking. Not very appealing but I guess the "RA or No Way" works for some, but not for all. So much for E Pluribus Unum.

 

Does a student's lack of means improve the quality of low-cost options?

Why do you want a doctorate? What's your motivation?

Just because education is a good thing doesn't necessarily mean that doubtful degrees are. Summarily dismissing those who disagree is foolish. And seeking additional education isn't always the same thing as acquiring additional degrees.

I don't mean to be nasty. I identify with your situation. I'm in my 50's and am not really in a position to drop everything or spend money lavishly. I'm reasonably intelligent, extremely curious and read voraciously. I earned my BA decades ago, but always retained a private dream of earning a doctorate some day.

Why, I'm not sure. I certainly don't need one. Maybe I was raised to idealize education, to believe that education can improve somebody. So presumably the more education the better, and the best educated person is the best person of all. That's not exactly been verified in my experience, but I still kind of feel it.

And there's something else. As I bore deeply into the advanced details of a subject, the circle of people that I can talk to about it shrinks. I find myself keeping silent because other people wouldn't understand and would just be put off. Learning can be a very lonely and alienating thing. That's probably the biggest reason for my own interest in DL, to tell the truth, the search for people with similar interests to talk to. I ended up doing an MA. Ok, so then what, the Ph.D.?

It was time for some stock-taking. Ego-aggrandizement wasn't really a suitable motivation for earning a Ph.D. I probably needed to address the ego-issue more directly. I (re)discovered that all kinds of free education were available once I lost the degree objective. (Just think 'library'.) The internet expands that tremendously. And I realized that there are all kinds of non-degree-granting special interest groups out there, both locally and online, that could connect me with like-minded people, and even involve me in research work if I wanted to do that. They can provide me with all the institutional affiliation that I need at my avocational independent-scholar level. And they won't cost me the thousands of dollars and years of time and effort that any credible Ph.D. program would demand. Finally, I have to admit that I enjoy the freedom of teaching myself and assigning my own readings.

I haven't tossed aside the doctoral dream entirely. But on the unlikely chance that I ever do it, it wouldn't be for purposes of ego-puffery. It would be because of the content, because of the intellectual life. So in order to attract me, a program has to have attractive academics. That's key. (Of course, what I find attractive might be peculiar.) Lack of prestige is fine, since I won't be seeking highly competitive positions. Even lack of accreditation is ok with me, if a program offers some intellectual excitement. But ultimately, there just has to be some there, there.

 

..................

 

I think it is important to explain the potiental limits of a non-RA degree and, and long as the person understands, they have the knowledge to make their own decision. No one knows you better then you - what do you need and what do you want?

I got an unaccredited degree (CCU was not accredited at the time) and half way through I knew it would not work for me forever. I started on the RA path. When I was looking at a PhD program I considered an unaccredited school due to cost. My wife laughed and said, "Why, so you can do an RA one when you are done?" KNOW THY SELF!