Unaccredited Degrees Are Legal

Re: Re: Re: KWU and Wyoming: a second look

I don't know about fact (1): I reviewed the Wyoming doc you referenced and found that in every case where it specified an ABET accredited degree, it also includes a statement similar to this one quote
"If an applicant is a graduate of a non-accredited four-year engineering degree program, the Board shall evaluate the applicant’s transcript to determine whether it is substantially equivalent to an ABET/EAC accredited curriculum. Transcripts from foreign institutions shall be evaluated by an independent service acceptable to the Board, and the associated evaluation fees are the responsibility of the applicant. If the curriculum is determined to be substantially equivalent, the applicant shall qualify"
Here is another example:
"CONTINUING PROFESSIONAL COMPETENCY
(c) College/Unit Semester/Quarter Hour - Credit for ABET/EAC approved course or other related college course approved in accordance with article (d) of this section.
(d) Course/Activity - Any qualifying course or activity with a clear purpose and objective which will maintain, improve, or expand the skills and knowledge relevant to the registrant's field of practice."

As for fact (2): I did a quick look at the KWU website and did not find anything about PE, ABET or licensing problems. I did a Google search and found some PEs with KWU degrees as a second degree (i.e. MBAs or PhDs) with accredited BE degrees.
I did find a disclaimer in the KWU enrollment papers that points out that the KWU the programs are not oriented for those seeking licenses and that the individual should check with the licensing requirements of their state before enrolling in an engineering program. That was also pointed out to me when I first talked to an enrollment advisor.
Jim

 

It all depends on where you start from. I can think of a lot of situations where someone has a ton of credits from different sources and just needs to finish a major to graduate.
For example: If the applicant already has 234 credits without a BS or BA and decides he is ready to settle down and finally graduate, then I can see where taking 5 to 7 classes to finish a major at KWU makes sense.
Ref:
Johnny Lechner
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/index.php?ntid=35174&ntpid=1
17April05

Jim

 

Why would anyone accumulate a random assortment of 234 credits? Unless a person were of independent means, as well as singularly lacking in focus, and so enabled to take courses full time to the exclusion of any significant remunerative work, it would certainly take a very long time indeed to accumulate so many credits. (Unless one simply bought them.) I'm also unsure how one could pile up that many credits without unwittingly finishing a major in something.

 

IF? It does not seem to matter at KWU. From the testimony of students on the pub, some with NO former college work only had to take 5 to 7 courses, yet some with an associates degree and 40 years experience had to take more courses than the ones that did not have any former college work. Since we do not know what KWU's requirements are, or how the heck they evaluate applicants then I guess we have to assume that it is based on what their commissioned based sales counselors can sell the applicant, don't you think?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: KWU and Wyoming: a second look

More smoke? The first place I looked was the requirements for the great State of Maryland:

"TO QUALIFY
An applicant may qualify for the Professional Engineers Examination by meeting the educational and/or experience requirements specified in one of the following subsections of the Professional Engineers law:

Subsection 14-305(b) - EAC/ABET APPROVED OPTION
Has graduated from a college or university on completion of at least a four year curriculum in engineering, or its equivalent, that the Board approves, and has at least four years of work experience in engineering that is satisfactory to the Board and that indicates to the Board that the applicant is competent to practice engineering, and has passed an eight hour written examination in the fundamentals of engineering given by the Board;
Programs currently recognized under the Washington Accord are accepted as approved engineering programs.

OR

Subsection 14-305(c) - NON EAC/ABET APPROVED OR FOREIGN CURRICULUM OPTION
Has been graduated from a college or university on completion of at least a four year curriculum in engineering, or its equivalent, that the Board has not approved, and has at least eight years of work experience in engineering that is satisfactory to the Board and that indicates to the Board that the applicant is competent to practice engineering, and has passed an eight hour written examination in the fundamentals of engineering given by the Board;
OR


{Instead of degree there is the experience option I previously spoke of}

Subsection 14-305(d) - EXPERIENCE OPTION
Has at least 12 years of work experience in engineering that is satisfactory to the Board, during at least five years of which the applicant has been in responsible charge, if the collective experience indicates to the Board that the applicant may be competent to practice engineering. "Responsible charge" means that the individual has direct control and personal supervision of engineering that requires initiative, professional skill, and independent judgment.
If the applicant has successfully completed one or more years of a college or university curriculum in engineering that has not been approved by the Board (i.e. not accredited by EAC/ABET) the Board may allow, for each of those years, a credit of up to six months towards the experience requirements."

Ref:
http://www.dllr.state.md.us/license/prof_eng/petakeexam.htm
22April05

I'm sure if I dug deeper I could find other great States that are not hung up on accreditation.
Also, I disagree with your claim that KWU is not up front with the professional licensing issues. See my other post.
Jim

 

Why indeed! David Letterman asked the "kid" the same questions last week. He has been putting himself through school as a waiter at the Olive Garden. The "kid" didn't have a good reason why he is afraid to graduate. His tentative plan is to graduate in 2006, but he didn't sound like he meant it.
Jim

 

I do not see anything here that suggest that a KWU degree will in any way qualify someone, or even help someone qualify towards this license. The few KWU courses (if accepted) would have to be supplemented by other university work, or a substantial amount of approved work. Any suggestion otherwise is blowing smoke! Write the Maryland board, and asked them if a degree from KWU will qualify you to sit the EIT/PE, and see how that goes.

 

Please re-read my original post. We really are not in disagreement.
The student I discussed did not need any degree to get his PE in Maryland (because he had enough experience already). He said taking the engineering courses at KWU helped him prepare for the exam. So KWU met his needs. He is able to place PE and BE(EE or ME, I don't know which) on his business cards legally and with great pride.
Jim

 

Re: KWU and Wyoming: a second look

Sweet.

(Of course, Wyoming doesn't "approve" its licensed schools. It explicitly states the opposite, that such licensure should NOT be construed as approval. This example demonstrates that oh so clearly!)

 

How about someone with, say, 30 credits? Do they do an additional 30 classes (thus, 90 credits)? Has anyone ever done so many classes to get a K-WU bachelor's? I've been watching K-WU since their inception and I haven't heard of it. Perhaps you have.

 

And what exactly would one's sentence be if one was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of committing suicide? And would one be tried in person or in absentia? And could one testify in one's own behalf? And would the jury be allowed to draw any conclusions re one's failure to testify in one's own behalf?

 

The estate could be fined, and the person may be charged for attempted suicide (trying unsuccessfully), but capital punishment is probably not appropriate. A life sentence perhaps?

 

While I sense that you are at least partially joking by asking these questions I'm going to give you some answers that are serious. In the first case, where someone is known to have committed suicide (the presence of a verifiable suicide note, certain methods of killing oneself employed, etc) they are obviously not going to be arrested. However, their family will probably never collect on any existing life insurance policies as there is typically a clause related to suicide. There is also a tremendous social stigma towards the family and family members often spend the rest of their own lives in some sort of pain. It is perhaps interesting that the most frequently cited reason for not committing suicide (by people who are profoundly depressed) is, "I couldn't do that to my family." People who are unsuccessful in their attempt od suicide are frequently involuntarily committed to a psychiatric hospital. Depending on how their treatment progresses, they might remain there for an extended period of time. This is what comes closest to being "arrested" for committing suicide. I'd also mention that there are many deaths that occur where there is at least some suspicion of suicide but insifficient indications to withhold life insurance payments. Some of those "middle of the night, single car traffic accidents" fall into that category. There are other types as well. You can learn a lot about this sort of thing by talking to Police Officers.
Jack

 

Jim,

Are you really arguing that if someone (or a few people) have graduated from KWU after doing what would be equivalent to a standard degree then KWU is legitimate? Even though other people graduate KWU with vastly fewer credits than standard??? If that is NOT your argument then please explain your point more clearly. If that is your argument then please explain your point more clearly.

 

Jim,

I didn't see where you responded to plcscott. To me this indicates deceit on the part of KWU. It indicates fraudulent behavior. It indicates diploma mill.

 

Ah! Behold, an individual in whom there is intelligence enough to detect when I speak tongue in cheek!

 

You know Bill...

I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head. Jim seems to be sincere in his responses. The difficulty is he is mentally caught up in this endevor. Like most people he is looking from his perspective and ignoring the stance of a disinterested third-party. Since it would be hard to come grips with the time and money wasted on K-W, he grabs on to whatever support he can.

His statement, as you point out, is irrational. The likely true fact that a few K-W graduates have done work that equals a real degree does not bestow legitimacy on K-W. A person could make the same observation concerning SRU and other degree mills. There almost always are a few students who have accumalted legitimate credit elsewhere. Sorry Jim. You are a nice guy but logic prevails.

 

Thank you, Jim. You are making some excellent points yourself.

The fact is that people learn differently. What is right for most people may not be right for everyone. If an unaccredited college has another method of helping someone reach their goal of obtaining a college degree that may differ from the standard of accredited schools, not only is there nothing wrong with that but it may even be more progressive.

Daniel Goleman has written a book titled "Emotional Intelligence" which posits that emotional intelligence may be more important to success than IQ. Here is an explanation of the book from Amazon.com:

There was a time when IQ was considered the leading determinant of success. In this fascinating book, based on brain and behavioral research, Daniel Goleman argues that our IQ-idolizing view of intelligence is far too narrow. Instead, Goleman makes the case for "emotional intelligence" being the strongest indicator of human success. He defines emotional intelligence in terms of self-awareness, altruism, personal motivation, empathy, and the ability to love and be loved by friends, partners, and family members. People who possess high emotional intelligence are the people who truly succeed in work as well as play, building flourishing careers and lasting, meaningful relationships.

The book and research demonstrates that how we traditionally view intelligence may be wrong. If we can be wrong about such a basic concept, we may be wrong about traditional education as well. By being open-minded to alternative forms of education, we may very well discover that, for some people, a different methodology may help those who fail under the present system.

 

Please give us a specific example of an unaccredited institution that provides a teaching method that is both academically sound and unavailable at an accredited institution. You can't even point out a habitually unaccredited institution that specializes in distance learning that you feel is academic rigorous and provides a standard education. Are you just making stuff up because you want to
1. yank chains
2. try to make it look like you know what you're talking about
3. it is just fun to make up stuff
4. it sounds good so why does it have to have anything to do with reality
5. Daniel Goleman is your cousin
6. you think that having an unaccredited degree means that one must have more emotional maturity than accredited degree holders

Without specifics your argument makes as much sense as saying if you can sleep on books and absorb all the material in them in one night and have a fool proof method of beating the Casinos then you should earn 3 Master's degrees and be a millionaire before the end of this year. What is the name of this unaccredited institution that offers a superior learning method (at least for some people) that is not available from an accredited source?

 

Jake,

You always take things too far. To compare unaccredited degree holders with prostitutes proves my point about the hostility shown on this site against unaccredited schools. Let's take just one unaccredited school which has been mentioned quite a few times, Bob Jones University, as an example. In trying so hard to be clever (and not succeeding anyway) you have just insulted the entire alumni of that college. Those individuals who have graduated from BJU have worked hard for their degrees and even if BJU becomes accredited some time in the future, those who have already graduated will always have unaccredited degrees. By my standards (which does show I have some) those unaccredited degrees are just as valid as any RA school degree.

The lexicon should be changed to create a distinction between true diploma mills and legitimate colleges who have chosen not be become accredited.