Unaccredited Degrees Are Legal

To Russ (and Morgan):

It just dawned on me from viewing a very recent post by Galanga elsewhere on these forums, that some of the pro-"unaccredited degrees are legal" arguments which you make in this thread and elsewhere sound eerily similar to assertions made by the notorious "Dr." Richard J. Hoyer.

Review the following and please tell us how many of the stated "Dr." Richard Hoyer accreditation myths you see eye-to-eye with.

Quite amazing, isn't it?

It should be interesting for you to tell us how and to what extent you guys appear to see things from a similar, pro-Hoyeristic perspective.

How about it? Give us a run-down.

Thanks.

 

If I recall correctly, Hamilton was legal, but look where degrees claimed from there got some of it's customers. SRU was legal, but look where it got several teachers in Georgia. LaSalle, CSU, and others were legal, but where are they now?

Just because a school can get by operating legally by calling itself a university does not make it a university. The only way an entity will be considered a university is if it truly operates like a university. Most of the unaccredited don't and their defenders never want to discuss specifics, they just repeat that all these "schools" have the legal right to be masquerading as universities.

 

1. You mean the brothels don't allow you to take your time and do it slow and easy?

2. I suppose a respectable brothel would be one in which: (a) the ladies are allowed to enter and exit their employment as they please; (b) the "non-traditional salesmen/sales managers" commissions are in line with what other salesmen/sales managers make; (c) the ladies are protected from physical violence, both from their managers and their customers; (d) the brothel managers are authorized to perform weddings.

 

Excellent point!

Doubly excellent point!

Thanks.

 

I believe that it would also be illegal to jump off a cliff in that suicide is illegal. People have also been arrested for doing things like bungee jumping off bridges (although I'm uncertain as to what law is being violated in such cases). Regardless of these exceptions, Bill's point is a good one.
Jack

 

Yeah, suicide is illegal in many jurisdictions. The bugee jumpers are probably committing some sort of criminal tresapass or breach of the peace. But again, I'm no expert in this area as is Nosborne.

 

Here is what I agree with:

John Bear:
“I have been writing, for more than 20 years, that the quality of a degree -- not the usefulness, necessarily, but the quality -- should be judged primarily on (1) the work that was done to earn it, and (2) the qualifications of the people who evaluated it.”

Alan Contreras:
“In the United States, the authority to issue degrees is based solely in state authority except when superseded by Congress. There is no such thing in the U.S. today as inherent authority in a private party to issue college degrees. We know of no modern legal precedent to the contrary, and plenty in support of this concept. You may disagree with it, but foaming about it wastes everyone's time, it is the law and the norm in the U.S. Even "religious exempt" schools are not exempt because they want to be, they are exempt because of a specific provision of a state law. Half of the states do not even allow religious exemptions.

People sometimes forget that no accreditor, federally recognized or invented, has the legal authority to authorize a college to operate or to issue degrees. States, and only states, have this authority, except when Congress carves out a special case (i.e. the military academies).

When we discuss the differences among "gray area" unaccredited colleges, we are really discussing only those that have state approval to issue degrees, some of which are legitimate postsecondary providers and some of which are scams and substandard degree suppliers.”

Russ, thank you for your insightful posts. Some of these guys are just incredible in their meanspiritedness towards you and Dr. Latin Juris. [BTW: no one has told me why certain people here think they represent Degreeinfo. (From now, by the power vested in me as Esquire, I do hereby claim that right for myself, Russ and Dr. Latin Juris).]

 

If you are trying to suggest that Bear and Contreras both hold that any school that's operating legally under its local authority should thereby be accepted as academically legitimate, then I think that you are misrepresenting the views of both men.

Because when people criticize the board's views in general, they are criticizing the views of everyone that posts here.

If you disagree with particular things that individual people have said, then it would probably make better sense to address those issues specifically.

 

Let's see: "Morgan," "russ," and "Dr. Latin Juris," three (fewer?) anonymous posters on one side of the issue. A host of non-anonymous posters on the other. Gee, which might have more credibility.

On a similar note, have you ever noticed how few posters who advocate for these substandar (or worse) schools use their actual names? And of them, how many have their highest degrees from accredited schools? (I can think of only one: Evans.) It's just a lot of strawman B.S.

 

Since we're picking sides on this issue - I'll join the underdog and give my opinion.
State approved unaccredited universities (such as KWU) are legitimate and confer legal degrees according to the State regulations that they are license in.
Jim

 

Jim, thank you. (Sorry I overlooked you. By the power vested in me as Esquire you too shall represent degreeinfo. Anyone else who would like to take sides?). Actually, what is deceptive is here is that there are not just two sides. There are lots of different positions. I dare say that BillDayson, who allows for the possibility of a high quality non-RA program under special circumstances, and Jake_A, who is against all UA options, are light years apart.

Rich: On another thread you claim that a graduate of K-WU's worst fear is to be discovered by his/her employer. Nice strawman! Here, at Esquire's Academic Counseling Service, we always tell our clients to be up front with their employers, explain the relationship of state authority to private "club" membership, explain how the study/degree will assist him/her to improve his/her job performance, and to make a copy of the summative work available to his/her supervisor for review. Most of our clients have told us that their employers were more than happy to reimburse the cost of an education at K-WU, PWU or other non-RA universities.

Bill: What else is it legal to do?

It is legal to:

Enjoy the spring weather
Say "goodmorning"
Be a gentleman or lady
Respect difference and diversity
Be friendly, nurturing and warm
Avoid tearing others down
Love one another
Seriously engage in lifelong learning
Reach a high level of expertise through informal and non-traditional means
Have your informal education recognized as equivalent to a formal study
Pursue academic excellence in a non-accredited academic setting
Save $100K or more by going the non-accredited route
Defend a free society against authoritarianism
Etc....etc...etc...

 

Ok. You are correct in part and incorrect in part.

Jim, please note that KW"U" is state-licensed, not state-approved,. The degrees it issues are legal, yes, ........... and VERY sub-standard? ....... Yes, very, very likely so.

Remember what the Wyoming Dept. of Education official said last year when asked about the unflattering testimonies made by certain KW"U" employees and US GAO investigators against KW"U" at the US Senate hearings on diploma mills?

She said something to the effect that "we expect schools that we license to get ACCREDITED if they are legitimate." (I'll find the exact and direct quote and post it here for you, if you like).

What does that tell you about what some Wyoming officials think of the "legal" KW"U, Jim (since KW"U" continues to remain unaccredited?)

I wish you well on your KW"U" studies - and thereafter.

Unfortunately though, in Oregon and increasingly several other states, after your studies (if and when you graduate and receive your PhD after you complete your 4 to 8 KW"U" one open-book exams and paper), you will be required to write "Unaccredited" next to the KW"U" PhD EACH AND EVERY TIME that you list it on a resume, business letter, official document, or other correspondence, even in an interview.

Is all of this worth it?

I know that you are, most likely, law-abiding and will do what the law requires. Will all other KW"U" grads do likewise?

I seriously doubt it. Some may try to pass it off as an accredited, legitimate degree.

And many will be caught doing just that (a la the "unaccredited degree is a ticking time bomb" analogy).

Thanks.

 

Please cite even one authoritative academic source that would agree that such degrees are "legitimate." "Legal" and "legitimate" are not the same thing. "Legal" can also mean "useless" and "dangerous" in many situations where such degrees might be applied. In fact, the vast majority of stories we hear about people getting in trouble with fake degrees received those degrees from "legal" schools. Not "opinion." Fact. You could look it up. Here's a start:

Todd Saldana
Charles Abel
Laura Callahan
All those teachers in Georgia
The police chief in Cheyenne

And so forth....

Kennedy-Western isn't "legitimate." It isn't even a university. It is the punch line to a bad joke being told in state legislatures, job interviews, the Chronicle of Higher education (and other media), and Congressional hearings.

 

I am honoured to be on the same side as Jake (and Bill, and...) in absolutely everything that matters here.

 

KWU and Wyoming: a second look

An unaccredited degree may be perfectly legal. But that still doesn't mean that it merits the same respect as an accredited degree.

Here's an example. Kennedy-Western University operates legally in the State of Wyoming, and legally confers engineering degrees. However, KWU engineering degrees (while unquestionably legal in Wyoming) are not accepted by the State of Wyoming's Board of Registration for Professional Engineers and Professional Land Surveyors (because they are not accredited).

So according to the State of Wyoming, KWU engineering degrees are both (a) completely legal, and (b) completely unacceptable as proof of engineering education for licensure purposes. They are legal but not respected -- not even by the State that "approves" them.

As far as I know, there is no State Engineering Board anywhere that will accept KWU engineering degrees. Yet for some reason, KWU's engineering web pages neglect to mention this limitation. I am inclined to suspect an ethical lapse on KWU's part, but perhaps KWU supporters can provide an alternative explanation.

 

Re: KWU and Wyoming: a second look

Engineering Licensing requirements vary between states. I don't know (but I suspect) that generally only degrees from ABET accredited schools are accepted for meeting some of the requirements for taking the PE exams in all States. There may be some states that do not have the ABET requirement, but I doubt it.
I have read some postings on the KWU Pub that the KWU degree does not prohibit the individual from taking the exams for PE, they only have to meet longer experience requirements. It has been my personal experience that having an ABET approved degree reduces the amount of experience (basically the degree counts for part of the experience requirement). I ran into the same problem in the state I live in because UMUC is not ABET accredited (though other U of Maryland colleges do have ABET accredited programs). The UMUC degree did not prevent me from taking PE exams. I ran into a similar situation for federal nuclear operator and senior operator licensing exams. An approved degree reduces the experience time requirement for taking the exams. Not having a degree (of any sort) at the time did not prevent me from taking the licensing exams - I just needed to fulfill the full experience requirements for the exam.
The fact that KWU engineering programs are not ABET accredited is not a slam on the school. It just means they made a business decision to not seek ABET accreditation, just as UMUC and other schools have done. KWU students who did become PEs (one did so in Maryland) wrote that the KWU program prepared them for the exams.
Jim

 

Philosophía Krateítõ Phõtôn, translated "Let the love of learning rule humanity."
Member since 1989

Jim

 

KWU is not only illegitimate, it is illegal use in multiple jurisdictions and in some situations. Five to seven classes instead of 40 classes for a Bachelor's degree? You REALLY think that is legitimate?

 

Re: Re: KWU and Wyoming: a second look

It's true that in some states, you can qualify for the PE exam with a non-accredited degree, or even no degree at all. In such cases, it might be possible for a KWU graduate to qualify for the PE exam, although they would need more experience than an accredited graduate.

On the other hand, there are some states where accredited degrees are *mandated*. Ironically, Wyoming is one of them; check the rules here if you like. The fact remains that a KWU engineering degree is worthless for engineering licensure purposes in the state that "approves" this school.

I don't necessarily object to non-ABET engineering programs. Thomas Edison State College, for example, is a legitimate school offering non-ABET engineering degrees. The difference between TESC and KWU is that TESC is upfront about the limitations of its degree (for example, see Note 2 here), whereas KWU is not.

The facts are (1) a KWU engineering degree is worthless for engineering licensure in many states (including its "home state" of Wyoming), and (2) KWU doesn't disclose this fact, at least not on its current website.

 

Re: Re: Re: KWU and Wyoming: a second look

This is one of the problems with KWU. They are not upfront about many of these things. If you asked, you will get a song and dance, but they do not put anything in their advertisements that says that they are NOT accredited, and they promote the Wyoming license as if it is some form of legitimacy.

Back to the PE license, which Jim is blowing smoke about. SOME states will allow someone to sit the EIT and PE exams that do not have an ABET accredited degree. However, I have never found one that will currently allow one to sit the exams based on a degree from an unaccredited school such as KWU. Usually the licensure boards will state that the degree must be ABET accredited or equivalent. 4 to 8 open book exams of which KWU allows the student to choose which ones they want will not qualify as equivalent. These states require transcripts to make sure certain competencies are met. You know, the terms that Russ, Jim, and Morgan dislike so much "standards", "competency", etc..

A transcript with 7 courses, and general statement about experience credit will not get it. KWU will not even tell it's own students what their standard requirements are, or what they actually receive experience credit for. So, how the heck can someone try to sell a state licensure board that KWU is equivalent?