UMass, West Texas A&M, Uni of Texas- Tyler...

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by sonya316, Feb 26, 2015.

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  1. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    1. MBA programs are not meant for kids with little work experience.
    2. Most of the students in top MBA programs are in full-time, campus programs. They are less likely to already have full-time jobs than attendees of nontraditional schools, online programs, and part-time programs. Also, if you took a close look at one of my links, it showed acceptance rates of job offers. They calculated job placement by using job offers, not by just who was employed after a certain period of time. I'll post it again. There are additional pages for you to view.
    Best & Worst 2014 MBA Job Placement At Top Schools | Poets and Quants

    3. I have not seen a good argument for attending an AACSB-accredited school that is unranked or low-ranked. It matters in academia, makes it a little easier to become a CPA in some states, and IBM will only reimburse tuition for MBA programs that are AACSB-accredited because they wanted to prevent their employees from attending University of Phoenix. However, if you're going to choose some unknown school, then you might as well choose the cheapest one.

    I read that paragraph from the article, but the ROI figures show that the graduates of top business programs are landing quality jobs.
     
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Regarding hiring bias, I have seen some of this in action. Here's the story. The Manager hires an MIT grad, "He's brilliant! He's from MIT, right?" without really paying a lot of attention to the person himself, just dazzled by the diploma. It turns out the guy is in fact brilliant. So smart that he doesn't feel the need to follow orders or work well as part of a team. He never survives probation. Now that same Manager won't even interview an MIT grad. "They're all prima donnas!" So, go figure. Now we know that this Manager should have a more balanced outlook but we're talking about the real world here, not just the way things should be.
     
  3. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    It's interesting to see you call me butthurt when you can't maintain a civil debate and are resorting to making things personal out of anger or frustration. Nothing rude was said about you or to you, so there was no reason for you to react that way. Ironically, this is coming after you chastised Major56 and Cookderosa for being rude.
     
  4. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure where I ceased having a civil debate. This is the second time in this thread that you felt it necessary to attempt to stomp out an opinion you felt was trying to compete with yours for attention. I addressed why your magazine articles do not, in fact, support the statement you continue to insist upon. Yet, you chose not to address that assessment.

    No, instead, you simply continue to spout the same bit about ROI and then accuse me of taking the issue personally. I'm not taking this personally, I'm just trying to avoid having you reframe my statements to support your own conclusions. Im not offended by your statements, many of them are just simply wrong. I will also not allow you to simply dismiss my opinions as being anecdotal while erroneously asserting that your opinions are based upon statistics and therefore more valid.

    You seem to really, really need to feel right about is thing you have no background in and have offered no actual evidence in support of (save a few surveys which I pointed out the flaws in earlier but which you failed to address). You're making wild assertions with no basis in reality (like "MBA programs are not for kids with little work experience" despite the fact that MBA programs today, unlike years ago, routinely admit students directly from undergraduate programs with little or no actual work experience. There are a number of very successful individuals who did this at Ivy League institutions if you'd like some examples) and then getting huffy when people point out that you're incorrect.

    If you think challenging your opinion is rude then you are going to have one heck of a time defending a dissertation. In any case, I'm not biting anymore. Be offended if you must. But so far it seems that your entire knowledge of MBA hiring comes from magazine articles which offer a single metric in the success of a business school graduate. If you simply have to embrace that data point, be my guest.
     
  5. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I'm expressing disagreement just like you and others have expressed disagreement. How could you not see where I addressed your argument on how placement is calculated? I pointed you to statistics on job offers and acceptance of those job offers. As far as the U.S. News methodology, they do know that some MBA students are not seeking jobs and some will receive bonuses.
    Methodology: 2015 Best Business Schools Rankings - US News

    But, they are anecdotal. If you feel like calling your anecdotal evidence anecdotal is dismissive, then you sound pretty offended to me. ROI is relevant when it comes to professionals completing MBAs to move up.

    You have offered no evidence whatsoever. You've just told stories and have given your opinion.

    No, they do not use a single metric. You're just making that assumption. Refer to the link above for the U.S. News methodology. I have no problem with people challenging my views. When I defend my dissertation, I'm sure no one is going to call me butthurt or say I don't know what I'm talking about. I've done an oral comprehensive exam for a committee. I know they have more class than that. You seem to be upset that I simply disagreed with you.
     
  6. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member


    As I said, when you see a degree like an MHA, it gives pause. That doesn't mean there isn't a good reason and that doesn't mean the individual won't get hired. But if a candidate for a job as say, a project manager, shows up to a manufacturing facility and they have an MHA and years of experience in healthcare, there needs to be a story to accompany the resume.

    Realize that many, many people blindly apply for jobs all over the Internet. So a cover letter here explaining that this is an attempt to move transferable skills to a new industry is the saving grace. Realize also, though, that for every job posting I generally receive a minimum of 25 applicants (and that's very low end). So if I have to pick between a project manager from the healthcare industry and a project manager who worked in my same (or a similar) industry, the career changer is unlikely to even get an interview.
     
  7. major56

    major56 Active Member

    I do believe you just provided three reasons (examples); whether or not they're good reasons /examples is an individual call. Nonetheless, you contradict your own posting. The ... I have not seen a good argument for could be considered as just a single observation and single subjective opinion... Also, will you reveal your information source with reference to IBM and its [reasoning] for requiring AACSB accredited business programs for employee tuition reimbursement /eligible education expenses? Is it conceivable IBM's decision rationalization (re reimbursements) takes into account AACSB standards of assessment /accreditation as being generally considered superior to and more preferred than that of an alternative B-school accreditation agency vs. simply a corporate preconceived notion regarding the University of Phoenix (ACBSP)?

    Note: Seemingly your above quoted posting is quite similar to this very first (02/11/15) reply posting to OP (fmusic) in the City-Data.com forum, e.g., Non-AACSB MBA Program Matter for Non-Profit Career? (skills, degrees, reputations) - Colleges and Universities -Higher education - City-Data Forum by author L210, also from San Antonio L210 - View Profile - City-Data Forum

    Note: L210's (02/11/15) post reads a lot like you sanantone ... or is it sanantone reads a lot like L210; perhaps one-in-the-same individual; or two individuals with duplicate views and examples—sheer coincidence, or...
     
  8. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Boy, I'm getting tired of repeating this: Job offers imply that you are unemployed at the time of graduation. Job placement rates have very little relevance if you are working full-time while completing your degree.

    If I work for a company and need an MBA to advance, job placement rates mean NOTHING to me. Also, look at the list of firms where those graduates are placed. Not everyone wants to work for Apple, Google, Facebook, GoldmanSachs, Morgan Stanley etc. There are people who want to earn an MBA in sustainable business and then work at small firms in that field.


    I really think you need to learn what "anecdotal" means. I earned an MSM from UMT. I needed a Masters in order to receive a promotion. I got the Masters, then I got the promotion. If I said that any Masters, from wherever, is all anyone needs, then yes my personal story is anecdotal.

    Saying that hiring is more complicated than looking at the school's ROI in a magazine article is not "anecdotal" it is a statement of fact about how corporate hiring works. Recruiters do not sit there and work through MBA candidates in the order their school ranks. Hiring managers often do have a selection of schools they like to hire from and that preference does not change because the rankings change.


    I'm a Human Resources Business Partner for a large, publicly traded firm. You can argue that my opinion does not matter and that my stories are irrelevant but I think you'd be silly to do so.

    It's a bit like saying that a college student considering becoming a lawyer should discount everything an actual lawyer advises and they should rely solely on ROI for a law education.

    You, on the other hand, have been trying to extrapolate from these articles conclusions which this data doesn't support. All I have said here is that ROI is not a sufficient metric in making a decision to attend a particular school. ROI is fine. But you are placing its importance much higher than it actually is for the typical student.

    And let's not forget that my comments were in response to your incredibly scientific statement:

    Take that UT Tyler Alumni Association. Sanantone says no one in the whole of Texas talks about you. You simply exist. While I appreciate the existential implications of that statement, you have offered not a smidgen of proof to back up such a silly statement.

    OK, some schools have a solid ROI. Big deal, what did you prove? Do you really think you added something to the discussion by asserting that graduates of Wharton make more money?

    Get an MBA from UT Tyler. It's like the Yaris (Slogan: "It's a Car.") of MBAs. If you are after in-series promotions or further opportunities in your company, that may be more than adequate.

    You've also asserted that:

    Another incredibly scientific statement with absolutely no backing! According to this report, the average age of a medical school student is 24 upon admission. For those individuals, the most work experience they are likely to have is two years post-bachelors. And yet:

    Tuft's is willing to hand an MB/MBA to students with no work experience.

    Too specialized?

    How about the BS/MBA program at PennState, Drexel, Rutgers, and Fordham?

    But right, if I offer an opinion based on my experience in Corporate HR, I'm just throwing around anecdotal evidence. Who cares what I think? After all, your opinion about the reputation of Texas Colleges and the intended class composition for MBA programs should stand on its own despite evidence to the contrary, right?

    ROI is a single metric. The methodology you provide show that it is a thoughtful metric. They made a good faith effort at making it a solid metric. But ROI is a single metric.

    There is a reason why businesses don't rely on a catalog of ROI when making business decisions, the needs of each business (and the risk tolerance of each business) require individual analysis. The articles you presented are fine. All of those are good programs. But so far, you've been trying to use them to prove to everyone that ROI is the key metric and that the practices of corporate recruiting matter not, only the numbers you found in a magazine.

    If you want to disagree with me, fine. You obviously know much more about how companies hire MBA candidates. After all, ROI! ROI is all there is to the equation, right? ROI! If you keep yelling ROI maybe it will make it make a difference.

    Most working adults after an MBA are seeking an in-series promotion. When you receive an in-series promotion, you don't get bonus points for your school having a slightly higher ranking than another. If you have an MBA from an unranked school, the promotion incentive is the same. Corporations don't have time or inclination to do it any differently. But hey, you found some articles. ROI!

    And it's true, your dissertation committe won't say you're butthurt. But if you present a single piece of data and try to stretch it around arguments where it absolutely doesn't fit, that argument won't hold. And if you respond by stomping your feet, they still won't call you butthurt. But they won't call you "Doctor" either.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2015
  9. major56

    major56 Active Member

    After review of this particular discussion thread; please consider that you’re mistaken as to the blue-marked portion of your cited statement; it’s simply inaccurate.
     
  10. novadar

    novadar Member

    I personally feel that once you crossed over to using terms like "butthurt" this debate went off the rails. It's pretty crass to me. If you want write nasty discourse go for it but don't expect anyone to respect what you write even if you make fully cogent and relevant points.
     
  11. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Yes, I am L210 and someone with an MBA agreed with me if we're going to use direct experience as a qualifier for authoritativeness on the subject matter.

    I'll admit that I can't find the announcement I read several years ago on this matter. Once I find it, I will post it up for you.


    [/QUOTE]

    How does it imply that you're unemployed? Have you never looked for a job while employed? Millions of people do it everyday.

    First of all, the OP is looking for jobs with other employers. I don't know why people keep forgetting this. Second of all, many people advance in their careers by switching employers. Thirdly, being offered a higher position within your company is a job offer.

    You don't seem to know what anecdotal means. Anecdotal means that you are using evidence from personal accounts. Since the sample size is too small, it is not generalizable to the greater population.

    I never said they sit down with a list of rankings. People have a general idea of what the best business schools are, and often go to them to recruit. Your organization has its way of hiring that can't automatically be generalized to other organizations. If we're going to use anecdotes, then I've seen many different hiring practices among the various companies I've worked for.

    Sigmund Freud was a trained physician and one of the most influential psychologists of all time, and most of his theories turned out to be wrong because they were based on his relatively small number of clinical observations. He conducted no scientific studies. So, boast all you want.

    When you have different opinions among lawyers, then you should discount the opinion of a single lawyer. Within the criminal justice field, you'll get varying opinions about the value of criminal justice degrees among criminal justice professionals who have been in the field for a long time. The best things a person can do is either find empirical evidence or gather the evidence which is what I plan to do. If you were to conduct qualitative research on the matter, you would still need a large enough, representative sample. You don't just interview one or two people.

    You have yet to give a good argument for why ROI is not important. I use articles from credible sources because that is what is expected when conducting research. When you are in a research-oriented program, it becomes a habit to look for sources and not rely on personal stories and opinions.

    This is not what I said. You're being dishonest, so this warrants no further comment.

    I proved my point that there is a positive correlation between a school's ranking and salaries. There is also a positive correlation between a school's ranking and job offers.

    [quoteGet an MBA from UT Tyler. It's like the Yaris (Slogan: "It's a Car.") of MBAs. If you are after in-series promotions or further opportunities in your company, that may be more than adequate.
    What does medical school have to do with the purpose of MBA programs?

    Minimum requirements are often much different from the profiles of admitted students. Pulling out a few BS/MBA programs is not representative. It would have to do if that was all we had, but it's not. Some MBA programs will admit students with no work experience. Some MBA programs will not require work experience, but most of those admitted do have work experience. The minimum requirements for admission are often different from the class profile because there are only a small number of slots, and the most impressive students are admitted. On average, full-time MBA students have at least a few years of experience.
    Get Into Business School: Work Experience - US News
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2015
  12. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    If you knew the methodology behind the rankings, then you would know that reputation is taken into account. It's not just my opinion. They've interviewed a lot of people to come up with the peer reputation score. See above for the class composition of MBA programs.

    You were not talking about ROI when you brought this up. Please go back and reread your post. You were talking about success in reference to my comments about job placement and job offers.

    Figures on ROI are not meant for the business; they are meant for the students to make an informed decision. The ROI figures are a result of the preferences of businesses.

    You're just exaggerating at this point.

    I also posted links to figures that look at job offers, bonuses, salaries, and employment. You choose to only see ROI. A promotion is a job offer. A promotion will be reflected in salary figures.

    I know that if I used my personal experiences in my data that I won't be called doctor. I've done mock research proposal defenses, so I know what's expected. They want sources. And, I won't be stomping my feet over any challenges. I haven't stomped my feet over any challenges. I pointed out rudeness that added nothing to the discussion.

    I am not mistaken.
    http://www.degreeinfo.com/general-distance-learning-discussions/49906-phd-programs-without-dissertation-thesis.html
     
  13. major56

    major56 Active Member

    novadar,

    sanantone referenced Neuhaus’ phraseology (e.g., use of butthurt) … not mine in this instance. Frankly, I was personally unacquainted with this specific jargon. :sad6:
     
  14. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    You are more than free to disagree.

    So, using a term you find crass causes one's entire argument to be "nasty discourse?" Interesting.

    I have no expectation of respect from you, sanantone or anyone else here. You are people on a message board who bear no relevance to my life. A question was presented. I offered an opinion. That opinion was promptly defecated upon by someone who offered another opinion which they falsely claimed was "scientific."

    My purpose is to make relevant and cogent points. Don't respect me? Shucks. I'm not here for your validation. Want to ignore my relevant and cogent points because I used the term "butthurt?" Sounds more like your loss than mine.
     
  15. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Sanantone,

    I'm not arguing with you any further. You say "MBA programs aren't for kids with no work experience." So, I show you programs that clearly admit individuals with none. So you loop back and acknowledge that fact as if it is somehow not inconsistent with your original assertion. Arguing with you is a bit like watching a conspiracy theorist insist that their theories are scientifically sound by repeatedly yelling the same three scientific terms ("The proof is in the bosons! The bosons I tell ya!") in no particular order.

    I'm walking away. If you need to think that my walking away is you "winning" then that's fine. You can safely add "in-house expert in all matters MBA" to your resume. Every post simply begets more spinning from you. The sad/scary part is that you look at the things you're saying and, I believe, honestly walk away saying "Boy, every theory I presented here is scientifically based and everyone else is just pulling stuff out of their backsides!" despite having been shown that a large number of your claims are unprovable opinions (like UT Tyler not having a reputation within the whole state of Texas).

    So let's just agree to think the other is completely full of manure and move on. This morning this thread was still amusing to me. Now it is just getting sad.
     
  16. major56

    major56 Active Member

  17. novadar

    novadar Member

    Cute response. You seem to be educated and well-spoken but I cannot understand why you need to use language like that.

    If you want to gain respect, use some respect.
     
  18. novadar

    novadar Member

    Major,

    I was not referring to you in any way. No need to apologize.

    It's just interesting that Neuhaus jumped all over others for joking about the guy who wanted to get a PhD without a Dissertation but he cannot handle someone calling out "his" bad behavior.

    There's no need to say someone will be "butthurt", it's just so juvenile. Surprising behavior from a supposed "Human Resources Business Partner for a large, publicly traded firm".
     
  19. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I don't need to use any sort of language. I chose that word because I felt it accurate. Your carrying on like this sort of reminds me of a person who once complained about the "profanity" being thrown around in the office because someone said "damn." If "butthurt" is such a crass term to you, I cannot imagine how you get along in the world. It isn't profane. It isn't vulgar. Casual? Yes. Immature? Arguably. But your response is a tad ridiculous.

    Wow, I want to thank you for opening my eyes. Really, my entire life I have been struggling to gain the respect of strangers on an internet message board and I've always fallen short of my goal. This advice is gold. You've literally changed the way I view the world and how I will approach it from this day forward. You, novadar, need to consider going into life coaching. To think I was on this path where I wouldn't earn your respect and, despite it not impacting my life in any tangible way, I now have the power to try to linguistically tip-toe around you so that you aren't offended by modern slang? I once was lost but now am found.

    Evidently you missed this:

     
  20. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Hmm...I see you have an interesting recollection of that other post. Let me refresh folks:

    I would hardly call this sarcastic response "jumping all over the others." But, considering how prone you seem to be to hyperbole, I'm not surprised.

    My "bad behavior?" For saying someone had a bit of butthurt? Really? You haven't actually "called out" anything. You've tried to make a mountain out of a mole hill despite yesterday telling me you had no desire to argue with me. Apparently today trying to start an argument with me seems a bit more fun. Is that it?

    There is no need to say or do a lot of things. Yet, it was said and it is done. Why are you trying to make an issue out of something I said on Friday and which you commented around since then?


    I'm not even sure what to say about this. Do you ever joke around with co-workers? Ever curse? I'm not the Pope. I never claimed to be the moral barometer. I'm an HR person. And, unlike yourself, I am writing here under my actual name. Go out and find me on the vast interwebs. I'm sure, despite being relatively private, you'll find some crumb of my existence. You don't like what I have to say? I DON'T CARE. But sitting there behind a cloak of web anonymity while implying I'm not who I say I am is cowardly at best.
     

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