Two doctorate - Your views!

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by chrisjm18, May 25, 2020.

  1. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    That one person with 3 doctorates...their ORCID profile is at least chronological but I'm surprised by the lack of publications - the single authorships on many the publications they do have - and the only internet presence being their own self-written biographies:
    • BS UMUC 1993
    • MS CMU 1998
    • PhD Jacksonville 1999 (I realize this looks strange, the MS was from 97-98 and somehow the PhD was from 96-99...)
    • MBA Strayer 2006
    • DM UMUC 2015
    • LLM University of Wales 2016
    • Doctor of Law University of Wales 2017 - Present (in progress I assume)
    Why would someone with a BS in Business and an MS in Administration go to Strayer for an MBA before entering a Doctor of Management? And then someone be qualified to enter an LLM?

    This whole thing seems odd.
  2. Courcelles

    Courcelles Active Member

    That all looks strange and excessive. If the MS and PhD were from the same school it would make sense as an in passing award, but as it is?

    There are institutions that allow non-lawyers to enter an LLM, though the MLS has absolutely become more common. And the University of Wales was a validation mess, so who knows what actually was studied.
    Dustin likes this.
  3. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    I am not surprised. A lot of people with PhDs and other doctorates do not publish. I think you will find very few people who graduate from online programs with publications. They'll submit their dissertation to ProQuest and somehow thinks that being published in the "real" sense. When I was getting my Ph.D., I was sure I wasn't going to publish. For me, it was all about fulfilling a childhood dream of being "Dr." However, my chair kept instilling in me that I had a duty to publish as a Ph.D. Whether that is true, I decided that I would have to publish if I wanted to be viewed as an SME in juvenile justice. Thankfully, I am not in a publish or perish position. They do require an active scholarly agenda, not limited to peer-reviewed publications. However, they expect one peer-reviewed publication every three years while on a tenure track since they give a course release one semester for the first three years.
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  4. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    There can be good reasons to have two PhDs. A few years ago I read a book on the history of alchemy by a college professor with dual appointments in the chemistry and history departments at his university and PhDs in both fields. Makes total sense. Also shows how creative one can be in contributing to a field.

    Getting a Doctor of Management, a PhD in Business Administration and a DBA, for example, seems rather pointless. There are undoubtedly people who would be impressed by the fact that a person has three doctorates even if they are all closely related. I, however, would look at it and think it was a vanity play. When you're looking at a resume, especially for a high level or technical role, you keep an eye out for red flags around personality. If you're degree accumulation appears to be bordering on the obsessive or narcissistic side then I'm probably going to pass.

    It's like I've said elsewhere on these boards. A resume is a generalized snapshot. A total picture. Most degrees just check a box. If I have to sift through six pages of "Accomplishments" that don't actually matter to the job at hand I'm not really interested. I'll gladly bring in a CFO candidate who only has a bachelors if their work history supports the move. We have tuition assistance. If the MBA matters so much to us we can assess their willingness to get one on our dime. But if you spent the better part of the last decade not actually accomplishing all that much in your field and just kept racking up degrees? Why would that be appealing to an employer? Even in academia, why would a person with no publications yet who ostensibly wrote three or more dissertations and theses be a tempting candidate?
    Dustin likes this.
  5. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Many of us were in practice prior to earning our doctorates and remained so afterwards. Doing empirical research and publishing it would be a far cry from what you are doing to earn a living.
    Many people who have (a) earned a doctorate (or a slew of them?) and (b) are in practice (instead of academia) don't have to cross the HR bridge to be successful. I never have since becoming a PhD two decades ago. Oh, I've had to process things through them post-employment or (more likely) post-contract, but I haven't had to have someone lacking my qualifications, experience, and subject-matter expertise attempting to make that judgment. The one exception is that I had to make the list for my first government job, but that was an absurdly foregone conclusion--I was already doing the job as a contractor; and HR clerk wasn't going to determine that I was somehow not qualified. Otherwise, HR has always been the last stop, not the first.

    I still remember how I got my first consulting position. The COO of the firm and I had a conversation. He asked if I could take a moment to meet the CEO. The CEO and I chatted for a few minutes, then he asked if they could make me an offer. I came back a couple of hours later and met with the head of HR, who handed me an offer letter. That job--and every other one I took after that--came about because of working relationships built with the hiring managers. HR was a place to push some paper and meet some compliance requirements. Necessary, sure. But irrelevant to the hiring decision.

    As soon as we stop looking at everything through that very limited lens, all kinds of possibilities arise, and all kinds of reasons for pursuing more higher education become apparent. I'm not interested in parsing through this person's example, nor taking a stance on it.
    RoscoeB likes this.
  6. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Exactly. Those who tend to pursue doctorates through nontraditional methods are usually practitioners. Still, some may embrace the scholar-practitioner identity and engage in moderate research after completing their degree.
    RoscoeB likes this.
  7. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    It's a cart before horse situation, though, Rich.

    My point is not literally dealing with HR for a job. My point is that you have relevant experience, doctorates that relate to your career field and research that ties the two together. Whether you go to HR for a job or the CEO hires you directly is irrelevant. You, as a professional, are greater than the sum of your doctorates.

    I'm talking about people who accumulate degrees but whose career achievements are minimal, at best, and often show a confusing path. Those individuals aren't getting in past HR if they apply normally. And they're very unlikely to be having that meeting with the COO in the first place.

    If the doctorate is the crowning educational achievement of an otherwise successful career then you're probably going to continue being successful. If the only noteworthy thing on your resume is a doctorate then you're going to be fighting a different battle.
  8. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    Certainly seems odd, but would note that the timing of when they earned their MBA corresponded to a strong, possibly near peak, demand for them. Would haphazardly guess that an MBA in that time frame, opened a lot more doors compared with now. Granted, not sure how a Strayer MBA would have been viewed at that time.
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    For me, the PhD wasn't a "crowning achievement." I was in my early 40s and it made a huge difference in both what I did for a living and how much I would be paid for it. Immense. I cannot understate this. It also changed the conversation with every hiring manager ever since. And it relegated the HR department to its core role.
  10. mintaru

    mintaru Active Member

    LOL, I guess there are a few Austrians who would do such a thing. :D

    Why? Well, in Austria, for several doctoral degrees, DDr., DDDr. or DDDDr. etc. is used. The number of letters "D" corresponds to the number of doctoral degrees acquired. I do not know what you think, but I would say that's also a bit absurd. (And yes, these titles are just an Austrian thing.)

    Here is a list of websites about people who use one of these titles. The list is a bit random. I just wanted to show that these titles really are used in Austria. Therefore, I did a fast Google search. These are the results:


  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I think I'll pass.
  12. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    The only other degree I would seriously consider is:
    -Juris Doctor or
    -a master's in clinical mental health counseling, marriage and family therapy, or social work.

    I know some schools exempt their professional programs like law and medicine from the employee tuition benefits. Also, more schools have master's in the fields I mentioned than J.D. programs. I absolutely only want to pay for fees and books.
  13. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    It IS possible to earn an ABA approved JD tuition free. The trick is to blow the top off the LSAT and not be too picky in your choice of schools. This is a full time program though and the loss of income is a serious consideration.
  14. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Well, of course, there are numerous ways of earning any degree tuition-free. In my case, a full-time faculty, using employee tuition benefits is the only option I would consider. I wouldn't say I like tests, but I would prefer a school with an LSAT alternative, such as the GRE. I do not intend to attend full-time and disrupt my income streams, especially when I do not aspire to be an attorney full-time. I honestly think I will most likely pursue a CACREP accredited master's and become a part-time/remote clinician. Again, I will only do this through my employer.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Or you could do really well in your career and make enough money so the tuition no longer matters.

    I think what's really important is understanding who you are and what your place in the world is--or should be. Then, if doing a degree makes sense, go about doing it. It doesn't matter what you have or have not done previously.

    As I've said elsewhere, earning a PhD was rocket fuel for my career--even though the PhD wasn't in the same field in which I worked. But I aspired to work in that field, so I stuck with a subject--nontraditional higher education--that I loved. But a few years later I realized I would remain in my original field, talent development. I also knew what it felt like to really get on top of a field--both scholarly and praxis. I decided to use the content and structure of another doctoral program to do that, choosing one where I could focus my learning--and subsequent research--on the scholarship and practice of human resource development. It helped that I had the resources to do that.

    If you want to know what I'm talking about, take a look at an Ikigai model.
  16. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    I think I'm doing well enough where I could fund a master's in counseling out of pocket. In addition to my TT position, I am also the lead faculty for CJ Online Programs (contract administrative role, compensated separately). I adjunct in the online programs (compensated separately) and develop courses for the online programs (compensated separately). I also adjunct at other schools online, including serving on a dissertation committee.

    I just don't see any of those degrees being significant enough to pay for them. If I really wanted to be a counselor, I would go for it. However, if I can enjoy academia and the tuition benefits, I will do so. And, if I obtain an LPC, I can determine if staying in academia is what I truly want.

    I also would want my future son to attend school for free, though I will save significantly towards his college education. Maybe he could use that money for something else if I'm still in academia and he gets a free or near free education.
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    If I wanted to eat burgers cheaply--a LOT of burgers--then I might consider getting a job at Five Guys or In and Out.

    If I was a tinkerer around the house, a part-time job at Home Depot or Lowes (or Ace) might be a nice fit.

    And if I was interested in getting another degree, it might do me well to get a job at the university I had in mind, even part-time.

    I got 25% off my fees at Leicester for that reason.

    When I toiled at the University of Phoenix (for a whole year!), I had several adjunct faculty who taught there simply because they could get a third off their doctoral tuition while doing so. (Full-time employees got half off doctoral tuition and 100% off master's degree tuition. That was a long time ago, so things may have changed.)

  18. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    A law degree is really kind of pointless unless you want to practice law or teach in a law school. It's a professional ticket to be punched not an academic or intellectual adventure. Law school actually does a pretty good job for what it's for, though, preparing new lawyers.
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  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The agency from which I will be retiring at the end of the month hires a ton of attorneys, none of whom practice law for us. But their skills around evidence, interpreting the law, etc. are extremely valuable to our mission. Plus, we're a good place for them to have productive careers that pay pretty well.
    Dustin likes this.
  20. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I feel like you're nitpicking for the sake of it.

    Crowning educational achievement, Rich. I'm not saying your life took a dive after your 40's because it was all post-doc.

    HR very rarely has the scope of gatekeeping as imagined by the masses once you get beyond the pure entry level and almost all hourly positions. As you ascend the professional ladder our function becomes more administrative and less hands on in the hiring process. Frankly, I lack the requisite credentials to tell if an engineer has the skills necessary for the highly nuanced role they are interviewing for. That's the hiring manager's job. All of this to say that what you describe, I agree with of course, but it is not unique to the doctorate. It is normal for all hiring above a certain line.

    I assure you that when the person who came to be my boss was interviewed and hired his experience was vastly different from the welder or the assembler and those were miles away from the process for the electrical engineer and the logistics specialist. The higher you go in the hierarchy the less formal the process becomes in many ways.

    I chuckle a bit as I type this because I just finished shredding a stack of unsolicited resumes that came in via fax (note to everyone, please never do this) for a position that has been filled for years and shows no sign of opening up any time soon. I imagine this individual wants an experience like you had. But even with a doctorate the manner in which they go about it will not get them where they want to go.
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