Trying to get a reasonable focus? More Info on CCU?

Perhaps - but I still will post my experience,(described as anecdotal) as it pertains to inquiries. Thanks for the feedback.

 

I hope that you do.


Bruce

 

Posting your personal experiences do not make them facts; they're unverifiable due to your anonymity. What is your name and from which schools do you hold degrees?

Of course, you and anyone else is free to withold personal information. But that means your personal experiences do not have any weight at all.

Anyone can claim anything, but that doesn't make it so.

Rich Douglas, appearing in the recently published National University Alumni Association guide.

 

DLKID RESPONSE

 

Then we agree. Thank you.

Rich Douglas

 

I will wait to see of someone mentions DETC education again and when they do, I will share my experience. Will I get bashed? Probably. Do I care? NO. [/B][/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------

RA, RA, RA, RA, RA, RA. I got so sick of it several months back that I took a vacation from this NG. It appears another vacation is in order. One word of advice to new members, NEVER disagree with any of the regulars on this NG or you will be blasted.

Several very good unaccredited schools exist in California, Calcoast being one of them and guess what the degrees are legal even for title use. Even Oregon will accept unaccredited degrees if the institution in question submits to a review by the State of Oregon. This process can be initiated and undertaken by the institution in question or by a graduate of the institution in question as long as the necessary information is made available to the State of Oregon.

Accreditation is nothing more than a QA process, PERIOD. The CA BPPVE does the same thing. I recently conducted a small survey of employers located in South Central Kentucky for the US Dept of Labor and learned that only 1/2 required a degree from an accredited institution. The other 1/2 did even care. The 1/2 that required an accredited degree advised that they would accept an unaccredited degree when it was explained that the unaccredited degree was earned from an institution which participates a QA regulatory process.

QA is important and it doesn't matter who conducts this process as long as the process is one of rigor.

The most useful aspect of accreditation is the participation in the federal student loan program and accreditation alone will not gain approval to participate in the loan program. And believe it or not, unaccredited colleges can gain approval to particpate in the student loan program but the process is certainly a more detailed and rigorous one.

I wholeheartedly believe that if accreditation was not tied -- fairly tight, I might add -- to the student loan program this system of QA measurement would not have survived the last 20 years. Without student loans IMHO the only universities that could afford to stay in operation would be the public tax supported, land grant institutions.

Another NG needs to be established so that true open communication can be shared. I'm starting to think that the ten or so posters -- who I have referred to in the past as "The Club" -- are being paid by the by the RA's to say RA, RA, RA, RA, RA, RA, RA. I agree that RA is the best choice not necessarily for the pure education but for utility and portability of one's degree. This will change though.

In conclusion, let me remind everyone that education has become a business. The brick and mortor -- RA -- institutions in the USA have alot of money invested in property and buildings that only half of which will be needed 25 years from now, when most of us will be studying from our homes. In the meantime [they] have to keep the ship afloat. Remember, less than 18% of the USA college student population is of traditional student age, 18 to 25. What this means is that 82% of the student population is older and likely has other life and professional demands all of which makes distance education more attractive. Ok now I'm rambling.

Forward thinking people are few and far between on this NG. I just had to fit that in somewhere and this spot is as good as any.

Now, I'll end on a note that everyone on this NG will agree with, Degree mills are BAD!

Wes Cox, who has three RA degrees and will end up with at least one more and could probably buy several more from schools like, Thomas Edison, Regents -- or whatever their name is this week, Charter Oak and many others.

Since few on this board care to hear conflicting opinion I have probably just wasted the past 30 minutes. If anyone wants to start another board and needs a moderator please let me know.

Wes

 

Another NG needs to be established so that true open communication can be shared
[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. No one here has ever been censored, banned, whatever, for advocating DETC or legitimate unaccredited schools. Degree mills, yes.

The common theme of most people who come here to defend non-RA degrees (and I'm not saying this is you, Wes) is to come on like gangbusters with a chip on their shoulder. When they're faced with evidence they don't like, they either storm off in a huff or just simply vanish. They're neither banned nor asked to leave by the administrators, I assure you.

The people who defend non-RA degrees in a rational, reasoned manner (Paul Coverstone & Quinn Tyler Jackson for example) make solid contributions, and are valuable members of the board.

What it comes down to, is when you make an assertion to a group of people who are versed in the subject, you have to be prepared to defend it. I'm pretty much an RA-only guy, and I'm ready to defend that view if someone questions it.


Bruce

 

In all fairness, Paul Coverstone's degrees (at least one of them) is DETC, and mine aren't, so it's not the same category.

So far, my payment for speaking here has been a possie of five (none of them administrators here, as far as I can tell) who have decided to send email to my publisher, to ABC, and who knows who else, although I suspect they'd have BCC'd me those, too, since they've been so upfront with me about it via email that excluding anyone would seem odd.

They have accused me of changing my site since this began (sometime this afternoon, I allegedly moved around some links so that my "Sugar Plum Doctorate" piece would be accessible -- nonsense) to "save face" -- called me a fraud, asked me to stop posting here on DegreeInfo.com, whatever.

You know... I'm just a little guy in a big pond who happens to open his e-mouth on topics he's passionate about. I don't want people to make incorrect decisions in their lives about their degrees, and I don't think I've come across that way ... if I have, I would like to know where.

I question the system because it has flaws. I don't say that regional accreditation is wrong ... I question it's importance in a few cases where the system simply does not have enough flexibility to bend. For instance, in the case of fait accompli research.

I don't need a doctorate from any institution to do what it is I do. I never claimed I did.

If, by being open, discussing the matter intelligently, and not running away from anything, I am able to help some issues be unconvered, I am happy about that.

If not ... then I'll try my best to improve.



------------------
Quinn

 

And now to reply to the original concern:

Karen, let me give you a big piece of advice...

You've expressed concerns that someone is going to take exception to the thing and go out of their way to shake your tree.

If they'll shake my tree (me, pretty much a nobody with a capital N), they'll shake yours.

What do you think the guys at ABC are thinking right now? It doesn't really matter what they're thinking ... but imagine this ....

You just wake up from an afternoon nap. You go to your email. And you find three emails, from three people you don't know from Adam, and they've decided to email your publisher en masse asking them "how they feel" about publishing someone with unaccredited degrees?

A few hours later, after trying to explain that there's a link to an article on your site explaining exactly why you went that route, you get a series of emails accusing you of modifying your website to "save face". Then, to top off the night, you get a BCC sent to ABC.

Now, I ask you .... if a little fish in a big pond like me is worth all of that effort on the part of what appears to be five people ... how much more so a teacher at a respected Canadian college?

My little poll shows that about 40% of the people here will never hold that degree at par with that of an accredited degree holder. Period. No questions asked. In that group, there are at least five who are quite willing to spend time volleying emails back and forth about it.

Ask yourself exactly what it is you'd like to do with an academic career, and if that has any place whatsoever in your career. I somehow doubt it does.

In my case, I am just a researcher and author who writes some fiction here and there. In your case -- you're asking for potential email and questions that you never thought needed to be asked, let alone answered.

Consider it.



------------------
Quinn

 

Yes, yes, yes!!! When you state "RA", you're removing all ambiguity. If you say "accredited" without specifying, you're including DETC, which is certainly legitimate although generally considered to be "second class"... but you're also, by being vague, including the absolutely dreadful frauds that claim to be accreditors, the worst of which are the World Association and the Accrediting Commission International. Many who don't know better have been suckered in by these fraudulent claims of accreditation, which is why it's always best to be precise.

 

I agree with you here Chip. Whenever I am asked about my degree, I proudly tell whomever is asking that I earned the degree via distance learning. That kind of sticks out anyway, since I live in one state and earned the degree in another.

More important, I also advise the person (and absoulutly employers) that the degree is nationally accredited by the Distance Education Traning Council, which is listed as a recognized accreditor with the USDoE. Don't you think this is the only ethical way to go?

 

That wording works especially well for those who know little about accreditation. National accreditation sounds so much more solid than mere regional accreditation. That's why nearly all degree mills use similar wording to tout their phoney national and international accreditation.

 

As I sat here reading some of the posts that referred to the inquiry about obtaining non-RA degrees and the efficacy of these degees, I couldn't help but remember a situation which recently transpired at a college where I presently teach. An instructor possessed a doctorate from California Coast University and was not challenged as to whether or not the degree was from a U.S. Dept. of Ed. recognized institution until the university participated in the 10 year RA accreditational review process. Since this individual's degree was not recognized as meeting the standards set forth by the RA accrediting agency, he was given the choice of resigning or to discontinue with the doctorate designation. Actually, he was a fairly competent instructor, but he chose to resign. This forum is an excellent resource for those of us attempting to improve our education through distance learning or through some other path than the traditional way. I think the "regulars" as they have been referred have an excellent grasp on the reality of obtaining non RA or other non-recognized degrees and have likely saved man from making the same mistake that the aforementioned individual made. Keep up the good work "regulars", you are appreciated for you time and insights!

 

It sounds like we have five amongst us who need a hobby that does not involve chasing down others whom as far as I can tell ... have done nothing wrong.

 

Or, put differently, you will find that a number of people might disagree with you. Is that bad? I'm going to disagree with you now, not because I want to "blast" you, but because I think that you raise interesting albeit controversial issues.

"Good" in what sense? Measured how? Good for whom? In what circumstances?

I agree with you in liking some CA-approved schools very much. But I don't think that you can say with confidence that most CA-approved schools are the academic equals of RA or even DETC schools. (A few probably are.) And it's clear that they aren't nearly as well accepted as schools with recognized accreditation. While CA-approved schools are probably useful for students in special situations, they are probably a bad choice for most students.

I think that's mistaken. The regional accrediting associations are associations of schools that recognize one another as peers and which accept one another's credits in transfer. Employers and professional organizations often defer to their judgement.

That's important. Even if you graduate from a school with wonderful academics, if its degrees and course credits are unrecognized, then they will be of less utility to most graduates.

If you want to get into any American doctoral program in which any real research occurs, you had better think RA. If you want to join a professional organization like the American Psychological Association, you had better think RA. If you want the federal government to recognize your degree, you should pay close attention to the DoE. (DETC slips in here.)

Even if you are just looking for education for its own sake, you probably need to think about whether or not the QA process is credible. If not, you may need to look for some alternative measure of quality.

In California, I like the CA-approved SF Law School because it has Cal Bar accreditation and because its graduates have done pretty well after graduation. I like the Institute of Buddhist Studies because it stopped offering its own CA-approved degrees, joined the Graduate Theological Union consortium and now offers instruction leading to RA GTU degrees. I like Dharma Realm Buddhist University because one of my old professors teaches for them and I'm familiar with their Buddhist text translation series.

But I wouldn't try to suggest that an SF Law degree is as useful as an ABA degree, even in California. I wouldn't suggest that a Dharma Realm graduate seek an academic teaching job. It's a lot more subtle than a simple good-bad, yes-no thing.

That's ridiculous. The most important aspect of accreditation is what its name implies: credibility. If accreditation makes something more believable, then one needs to ask "to whom?" Unless you are studying purely for your own satisfaction, you need to consider a program's credibility to other people. In particular, to your employers and your professional peers.

If you have something to say, then why not start a thread about it and lay out your point?

Then by all means educate us. I say again, start some threads and lay your forward-thinking ideas on us. I for one would welcome it. I read this group in order to learn things, to be exposed to new ideas and to shape my own ideas by bouncing them off others.

But please remember that being a leader and an iconoclast is a lonely road. You will find that most people don't already agree with you (by definition) and you will need to bring them around by persuasion.

I care enough to have just wasted 30 minutes replying to you.

 

Just to jump in a little ... at the Masters level I find very few RA schools that accept each others credits for transfer. Although quite common at the undergrad level, I find it the exception at the graduate level.

 

Indeed you have a point here, however when if asked about the DL degree, I give them the facts and leave the verification up to the employer. If you have some advice here as to what I should be saying to the employer, other then what I have previously stated - - it is welcome.

 

It is a simple matter of ethics. If you believe that the employer assumes your degree is regionally accredited or if you believe that the job calls for a regionally accredited degree, you must decide whether you will walk the ethical tightrope and hope the employer is careless, now and for all times.

As for the wording, it is a simple matter to be clear about the degree. Only when you're trying to walk the tightrope do you need the tortured wording, but that is a simple matter, too.

 

I don't think it is that one RA school will not accept masters credit from another RA school, but there is a limit on the number of hours they will accept. This is also true for most undergrad credit. Most school with which I am familiar want you to do 30 of the 120 hours at that school. Most masters programs will accept 6 hours credit. Not sure why, but there is a limit on what each school will accept. Probably because the program is approximately 30 credit long.

------------------
Howard Rodgers

 

The point is that the RA schools do recognize one another, but there are different layers of articulation in the recognition. As noted, RAs recognize undergraduate credit tranfer (and sometimes a few credits at the masters level). An RA graduate school recognizes RA undergraduate credits in the sense that they recognize the undergraduate degree as a qualification for entry into the graduate school. Similarly, RA doctoral programs recognize RA graduate qualifications for entry.