Trident's accreditation is in jeopardy

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by SteveFoerster, Jul 15, 2011.

  1. Stu_Dent

    Stu_Dent New Member

    Jeez. Looks like the folks at TUI are screwed by you guys whatever they do. Worried students are calling them asking what happens IF they lose their accreditation, and they get an explanation of how their credits are treated under those circumstances. You then interpret that as some indication that they're closing! Go figure. That's beyond ridiculous, and if they said nothing you'd criticize them for that too. Is this forum just a masturbatorium for pseudo-intellectuals that have little else to do than whittle?

    IMHO there is virtually NO chance that TUI will lose its accreditation and the folks on here, some of whom I gather are doctoral students, should know better as a little sensible analysis would lead you to that conclusion. I'll post my thinking on that shortly for those who have been scared by all this prattling. The rest will no doubt be happy to return to counting the number of angels they can stick on the head of a pin.

    Apologies if this sounds angry, but I am. I wanted to get some insight into the issue and instead I found a bunch of people spreading rumors and fear instead of THINKING.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2011

    USGRAD Member

    Dear Stu_Dent,

    I sure understand your feelings about this development, especially given the investment you have made. Note that you are also giving your views. A more rational – balanced and measured approach might serve you better.

    If I had to bet, I would say that Trident will be successful and maintain its accreditation, following major changes. They have quite a bit going for them:
    1. Size of the student body (“too big to fail” principle!!!)
    2. Mostly military students (we need those military men and women, and have to keep them motivated and happy)
    3. The current economic climate and the negative impact on student if accreditation is not maintained
    4. The offending issue on which the “Show Cause” order is based, is serious, but NARROW

    Again my vote is that accreditation will continue, and I am usually right!!

    Whatever the outcome, please know that you will end up with a degree from a regionally accredited institution - it’s the Law (and applicable Regulations).

    Have an open mind, enjoy your studies, sleep well, exercise, be nice to your family, friends and pets, and you will be okay.
  3. ebwhite

    ebwhite New Member

    I have a questions for you guys with some experience with online schools.

    I have transfered in 88 units to TUI, and only needed 8 classes to graduate with a BS in business (degree comp.)

    So far, I have completed 4 classes....However, with this accredidation issue, it has got me thinking about transfering and finishing at a another school.

    What are some good schools online that would take all of my units and let me grad with only my 4 classes...Any recommendations?
  4. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    For better or for worse, it is EXTREMELY RARE for a school to lose it's accreditation for anything other than financial problems. If this was about embezzlement, or Trident not being able to pay it's bills, then students should be really concerned, but this? I would be shocked if WASC pulled their accreditation for this. If WASC does, it would be an indication of Trident completely mismanaging the situation.
  5. _T_

    _T_ New Member

    Just to offer clarification on my original post which was referenced above... I called TUI to inquire about the teach out policy as I was unaware if it covered doctoral students. Never once during the discussion did I get the feeling that the university was preparing me for their eventual closing. Also, just for further clairification, WASC clearly outlines the aspects which must be addressed in a teach out plan for any university which they accred. Which includes doctoral students.
  6. Stu_Dent

    Stu_Dent New Member

    Risk assessment of tui losing accreditation


    Why anyone would imagine that the university, its staff, its faculty, its administrators and the investors who have pumped tens of millions of dollars into this institution would not fix the problems and secure the university’s accreditation by March 2012 beats me. The consequences of not doing so would be terrible for all of them so pretty obviously they will make sure it doesn’t happen.

    An argument has been developed that because there is a risk of the university losing its accreditation students should be worried about going there and a lot of the ensuing discussion has centered on what happens IF that event occurs. There has been little to no discussion of the likelihood of that actually happening.

    Therefore I think what’s needed at this juncture is an analysis of the likelihood of that risk.

    That there’s a risk of loss of accreditation is true. However the critical issue is how large is the risk? There’s a risk in driving to the supermarket for milk, yet no one here is suggesting that people should stop doing it. Everything we have learned about TUI tells us that the people at TUI are doing their best to fix the issues. The university apparently had an administrative problem dealing with the transcripts of incoming students. They’re fixing that. They didn’t report this to WASC when they should have. Their President has gone and a new and more experienced man is running the place now.

    So if the issues are being fixed why do people think they'll lose their accreditation?
    It makes absolutely no sense to me to argue that they’ll do nothing and allow the accreditation to be lost, or even more incredibly, close the institution, when it’s obviously not in their interest for that to happen.

    In my opinion there are two risks:

    1. A risk that TUI will not fix the problems of the administration of transcripts and of reporting to WASC.

    2. A risk that WASC will not accept that the problems have been fixed to their satisfaction and as a result not accepting that sufficient cause has been shown that accreditation should not be revoked.

    Let’s analyze these in turn.

    My understanding is that TUI is already fixing both of the problems mentioned in the "show cause" letter, as they have indicated. They have a new President, are assessing their records to determine which students are affected and are changing their administrative systems. As they have every incentive to fix them fully, I expect that they will have fixed them by the deadline imposed by WASC, if not before. Thus I assess the risk of them failing to do so as effectively zero.

    There is then a risk that even though the problems have been fixed, WASC does not accept this as sufficient. The nature of the solutions for the two problems (new systems to replace failed administrative systems and new personnel to replace failed reporting systems) seem to me to be ones which it is very likely that an accrediting body would find acceptable. Again I think it reasonable to expect that TUI will determine beforehand what WASC will find acceptable and make sure it does whatever they require as not to do so would have such adverse consequences for them and for their students. This then leads me to assess the risk that WASC will not accept TUI’s fixes as minimal to zero.

    People here are expressing worry and concern as to what they ought to do, whether they should go elsewhere, whether they should continue at TUI and so forth. The answer to that in my opinion is pretty obvious given that the assessment of the risk of losing accreditation is virtually nil and that is, TUI should be a potential school for any prospective student, (and indeed existing students) for exactly the same reasons it was a potential school for them before this accreditation issue came along. The whole dear-me-the-sky-is-falling argument depends on the risk of losing accreditation and frankly there is no reason for expecting that to happen.

    It should also be born in mind that the accreditation issue has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the educational experience at TUI. It is to do with how credits for courses completed elsewhere were recorded and a failure by specific people who were at the university to report this to WASC. So given that students might be hard pressed to find equivalent quality programs elsewhere and that there are various switching costs in going elsewhere, and if the likelihood of losing the accreditation is next to zero, it makes sense to me that students should continue to enroll there.
  7. Stu_Dent

    Stu_Dent New Member

    Some people on here make a big deal about TUI now being a for-profit institution as though that makes an difference to this "show cause" accreditation issue. Well let's think about that.

    The show cause accreditation issue emerged because it was realized that the university was screwing up how it handled the transcripts of some incoming students, and failed to report this in a timely manner to the accreditors. OK there's two failings there.

    TUI changed from a non-profit to a for-profit institution some four years ago I think. The place was founded in 1998, some thirteen years ago. Is there any evidence whatsoever as to when the mis-administration of transcripts started? Well, judging by what TUI says about its checks, and the length of time it is taking them to complete them it looks to me as though this had been going on for years, and in all probability before the switch to a for-profit institution. That is to say that when the new investors bought the place they bought it with this defect, and given that it's only now come to light, that they were not told about it either! You might like to think about how they feel about THAT given what's happened subsequently.

    So if that's the case all this talk about the defects of non-profits actually don't apply - the screw-up was not caused by the newly acquired for-profit nature of the school, but rather by some inept management at some time in the past.

    This brings us to the second issue, the failure to report. Frankly I don't see that as a product of a for-profit institution either. Rather it seems to have been down to decisions made by a very small number of senior managers and they are being replaced. One might like to assume conspiracy and cover up, but I think it more likely that some people were afraid for their jobs and thought they could get away with not telling the accreditors. I don't know for sure but to imagine that this was some institutional cover-up seems so unlikely simply because of the risk of doing so. Look at what has happened and the adverse effects on the value of the institution. It just seems like the result of a really stupid decision by some very stupid people.

    In addition, there's no reason to assume that in general managers in non-profits make better decisions than managers in for-profits. There seems to be no restriction on where stupidity can be found.

    So can we please get off the whole "non-profit good, for-profit bad" argument regarding this accreditation issue. It makes no sense.
  8. Stu_Dent

    Stu_Dent New Member

    Ditto _T_.

    Everything I know about the place tells me that in fact they are currently working on improvements way beyond this accreditation crisis!
  9. airman79

    airman79 New Member

    As a recent grad from TUI, I am also concerned with the accreditation situation. So I decided, what better to get to the bottom of the situation than to contact WASC directly. Below is an email I received yesterday from a very senior person at WASC. Please take note of the last sentence that the senior WASC rep wrote me - this should quash some of the rumors floating on this site about TUI planning on shutting down. As for recent grads, there is nothing to worry about, your degree is accredited and will always be accredited. I do admit that Trident (I hate the new name by the way) has done a bad public relations job on their accreditation status. There was also a failure of leadership at TUI and firing the prior president was a good idea. Some people on this website (USGRAD) are claiming they have sources that Trident is "more focused on preparing for closure of the University than implementing changes to meet the WASC requirements for continuing accreditation". USGRAD doesn't know what he is talking about and should be completely ignored. PLEASE STOP MAKING UP STUPID RUMORS ON THIS WEBSITE. Please take note of the last sentence that the very senior WASC rep wrote to me on the email below.

    Here is some additional information about Trident's
    accreditation status that I hope will be helpful to you:

    At its meeting on June 22-24, 2011, the Accrediting Commission for
    Senior Colleges and Universities acted to issue an order to Show Cause
    why the accreditation of Trident University International should not be
    terminated by March 30, 2012. A Show Cause action reflects the
    Commission's findings that the institution is substantially out of
    compliance with one or more Standards of Accreditation and must
    demonstrate within one year why its accreditation should not be
    terminated. The accredited status of the institution continues during
    the Show Cause period. A special visit will be scheduled for fall 2011
    to evaluate Trident's progress in addressing Commission concerns, and
    the Commission will review the special visit report in February 2012.
    You can read the institution's response to the Commission action and
    their plans to address Commission concerns at
    WASC Accredited Online University, Accredited Distance Learning Degrees | TUI

    For continuing students: While WASC cannot advise you on whether to
    continue your studies at Trident or not, we can describe the possible
    actions that the Commission might take next February regarding the
    university. These options include removing Trident from Show Cause
    status and imposing a lesser sanction (such as Probation or Warning)
    which would require another special visit--the institution's accredited
    status continues under these sanctions; removing Trident from all
    sanctions; or revoking Trident's accreditation. We do not know which
    decision the Commission will make in February. You can read more about
    WASC sanctions in the attached file from the WASC Handbook of
    Accreditation. In terms of what happens should Trident lose its
    accreditation, the institution (like all institutions accredited by
    WASC) will put in place an approved teach-out plan to help students
    complete their degree programs at another accredited institution. In
    some cases, institutions may be able to continue teaching for one or two
    additional terms, after WASC accreditation has been revoked. In this
    instance, the institution remains WASC accredited during its teach-out

    For prospective students: Students who are exploring enrollment at any
    institution need to research the degree programs they are considering so
    that they might make informed decisions. The Council of Higher
    Educational Accreditation website
    Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) (2010) under "Informing the Public
    about Accreditation" offers advice to students that you may find

    For students who have graduated with a bachelors, masters or doctoral
    degree: Loss of accreditation is not retroactive. If students receive a
    degree from an institution that was accredited at the time they
    completed their studies, students will have always graduated from an
    accredited institution.

    I should also mention that Trident is working hard to get off "Show
    Cause" status and will have every opportunity to present to the
    Commission the steps it has been taking.
  10. hipsociety

    hipsociety New Member

    Does TUI or WASC list which schools TUI has teach-out options with? I'm sure they would have had to arrange these prior to or shortly after receiving accreditation.
  11. USGRAD

    USGRAD Member

    Attn: airman79

    That is my informed perception/belief, and I am entitled to it just as you presented yours above. However, as I also mentioned, given certain factors (read my earlier postings), I strongly believe that the “Show Cause” order will be lifted and Trident’s accreditation will continue. Summit Partners has mucho dinero, and will undoubtedly fix the problem. You students and alumni can help by making your views known to WASC.
  12. Petedude

    Petedude New Member

    Or better yet, to TUI. Tell them to get moving and quick! :)
  13. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator Staff Member

    I completed a search for my own records on I put in for a search for my MS-ITM from Touro College and it is confirmed that I have an MS-ITM from Touro well as TUI which is odd. Anyway, Touro College is listed as my graduating school. I guess we can play the name-game all we want but Touro College is the school of record. :approve:

    Name On School's Records: RANDELL
    Date Awarded: Month/Day/2006
    Degree Title: MASTER OF SCIENCE
    Official Name of School: TOURO COLLEGE
    Major Course(s) of Study (and NCES CIP Code, if available): INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY MANAGEMENT
    Dates of Attendance: 03/2003 to 06/2004
  14. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    Did they lose it yet? surely they have.
  15. Petedude

    Petedude New Member

    No. How sad that there are people hoping for the worst.

    The meeting will be in March. That's the end if it if they don't fix things by then.
  16. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator Staff Member

    And you are basing the "surely" comment on...? Maybe if you ever finish a degree at NationU I can hope they do not get accredited. :swordfight:
  17. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    I was messing with Stu_dent.

    p.s. I did finish my degree at Nations U. And they will never get it at this rate.
  18. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator Staff Member

    Well, congrats on getting the degree. I do hope they get accreditiation.
  19. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member

    Hey B4,

    You should list your Nations U degree in your sig line.

    Good job!

    Abner :smile:
  20. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator Staff Member

    Final entry on this, I hope. I spoke to three people at TOURO COLLEGE on a conference call. It has all been fixed. StudentClearingHouse now has Touro University International as my school of record, that is the most accurate and correct statement. I am impressed with their willingness to listen and help. Hats off to Touro!

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