Transfer fr SCUPS to NCU

A separate board of directors, perhaps, but certainly not a situation of NCU being "...this school that was not associated with SCUPS."

Clearly, NCU appears to host and operate the IT infrastructure for SCUPS. See Post-1 and 2 below.

Additionally, the faculty for NCU’s international division, NCUI (which provides the degrees for the NCU/HUT program), consists of the same faculty from SCUPS. See Post-3 below.

The same IT infrastructure and resources + use of common facilities + shared use of faculty + shared (other than board) administrative resources = associated schools (very close ones).

I suppose that NCA wanted to see a clear separation between NCU and SCUPS for a reason. However, in my opinion, the intended separation, as a matter of reality, has turned out to be far more superficial than originally expected.

*********
* Post-1 *
*********

The SCUPS association is made even more evident based on a careful look at NCU's network.

An NSlookup and hostname scan reveals that NCU operates with a full class-C address space and network on Qwest. Additionally, the geo-location information for each of the network addresses and hostnames (servers) show they all reside in Prescott, AZ.

Qwest Communications NET-QWEST-BLKS-4 (NET-65-112-0-0-1)
65.112.0.0 - 65.127.255.255

NORTHCENTRAL UNIVERSITY 08231-65-116-240-0 (NET-65-116-240-0-1)
65.116.240.0 - 65.116.240.255

ADDRESS HOSTNAME
65.116.240.1 roadrunner.ncu.edu
65.116.240.33 dev.admin.ncu.edu
65.116.240.35 dev.www.ncu.edu
65.116.240.40 dev-admin.scups.edu
65.116.240.41 dev-learners.scups.edu
65.116.240.42 dev-mentors.scups.edu
65.116.240.43 dev-www.scups.edu
65.116.240.45 dev.learners.ncu.edu
65.116.240.46 dev.mentors.ncu.edu
65.116.240.55 mail.scups.edu
65.116.240.66 mail.ncu.edu
65.116.240.67 www.ncu.edu
65.116.240.72 eedusa.com
65.116.240.74 www.scups.edu
65.116.240.77 mbadistancelearning.com
65.116.240.78 psychologydegreesonline.com
65.116.240.79 businessdegreesonline.com
65.116.240.80 degreesonline.org
65.116.240.88 www.northcentraluniversity.org
65.116.240.91 www.bbadegreesonline.com
65.116.240.92 www.lawdegreesonline.com
65.116.240.93 scholarshipadvice.info
65.116.240.94 nogmat.com
65.116.240.95 psychdegreesonline.com
65.116.240.96 distancelearninginformation.com
65.116.240.97 humanresourcemanagers.org
65.116.240.98 phddegreesonline.com
65.116.240.99 www.international-center-for-distance-education.com
65.116.240.100 mentors.scups.edu
65.116.240.101 learners.scups.edu
65.116.240.104 alumni.ncu.edu

Interestingly, I noticed on several of the non-NCU sites that accreditation is presented as unimportant unless the school is looking for access to federal dollars.

For example:
_________________________________

Is accreditation important?

"There are over 100 different accrediting agencies. Most are designed to act as oversight for the government so they don’t have to spend as much time regulating colleges. If a college does not wish to have access to federal dollars there is no real reason that they would need to have accreditation."

http://businessdegreesonline.com/
http://psychologydegreesonline.com
_________________________________

Such statements are almost amusing since there is hardly a page of content on any of the NCU sites that does not prominently display their NCA accreditation. I wonder if NCA/CHEA shares this view surrounding accreditation.

All of this just seems hard to swallow when the content and messages are managed and delivered from the same source. I also struggle with rationalizing why any school (or education group) would operate under two totally different fronts, guidelines and principles unless the rules, standards and external oversight required of one entity are being substantially ignored or manipulated (lowered) by the other.

I would think the best approach for NCU to take would be to simply dispose of the SCUPS and associated relationships, or work to bring all programs under NCA/CHEA's oversight and criteria for accreditation.

Tom


*********
* Post-2 *
*********

I suppose my curiosity is getting the best of me, but the more I look at the underlying information, the more interconnected NCU appears to be with SCUPS and AEF.

A Whois search shows that NCU, SCUPS, NCUI and AEF appear to share the same network, systems and IT resources.

NCU
IP Adress: 65.116.240.67
IP Location: US(United States)-Arizona-Prescott

Technical Contact:
Jerry McArthur [xxxx]@ncu.com
Northcentral University
505 W. Whipple St.
Prescott, AZ 86301
UNITED STATES

SCUPS
IP Address: 65.116.240.74
IP Location: US(United States)-Arizona-Prescott

Technical Contact:
Jerry McArthur [xxxx]@ncu.com
IT Manager
Southern California University for Professional Studies
1840 E. 17th Street #240
Santa Ana, CA 92705-8605


NCUInternational
IP Address: 209.217.36.7
IP Location: US(United States)

Registrant/Admin Contact:
Jerry McArthur (CTLGDN-241025) [xxxx]@ncu.com
505 W. Whipple Street
Prescott, AZ 86301
US

AEF
IP Address: 207.217.36.7
IP Location: US(United States)

Admin/Tech Contact:
Patrick Doan
1850 E. 17th Street, #215
Santa Ana, CA 92705
US

A separate observation (which hopefully means nothing)….

The cached version of the American Education Foundation (AEF) URL (american-edu.org) from back in 2002 through 2003 show it to be the American Education Institute that offered online MBA and MSCS degrees. The site touts that you could earn the degrees within a matter of weeks.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021212....org/index.html
Here is the timeline of changes: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://american-edu.org

The site was re-registered to AEF/Patrick Doan and with the same IP address as the NCUInternational.com website during April of 2004, so I hope that there were no prior associations with AEI. Perhaps Dr. Bear or others on this board can tell us more about the American Education Institute.

Tom

*********
* Post-3 *
*********

Along with your questions, I’m left with a few more:

1. Who is the responsible party for the error? Is it SCUPS, AEF or a SCUPS affiliate?

2. Why is faculty for the NCUI (NCU/HUT) program basically the same faculty listed for SCUPS? See the following:

http://www.hut.edu.vn/cictt/ncu/
http://www.scupsint.com/professors.htm

The listed NCU/HUT professors...

*Dr. Charles Bisanz is an organizational consultant, teacher, writer and attorney. He is President of Innovation Technologies, Ltd., Minnesota.

*Dr. Harry Bury, Professor of Management, Baldwin-Wallace College, Ohio.

*Prof. Robert Dalton is a faculty of George Washington University, President of D&D Association in Washington D.C.

*Dr. Joseph Daly, Attorney at Law, Professor of Law at Hamline Law School, Minnesota and Arbitrator of the International Commerce Court.

*Dr. Paul T. McGurr is a Professor of Finance and Accounting at Ashland Business School in Ohio.

*Dr. Lois Vietri is a Professor at the Maryland University for over 20 years.

*Prof. Kazbeck, is an attorney at law in California and a Law Professor at the SCUPS

With the exception of Lois Vietri, all of the professors from the NCU/HUT list are also listed on the SCUPS website (http://www.scupsint.com/professors.htm). Additionally, the NCU/HUT website also shows that Robert Dalton is the current President of AEF, which promotes (or works with) both NCU and SCUPS programs (http://www.american-edu.org/programs.htm ).

3. Is this information possibly incorrect too?

4. Is the NCU/HUT program really an NCU program (accredited) or is it possibly a SCUPS program (unaccredited)? The line between the two entities in this case appears to be somewhat obscure.

5. Does SCUPS jointly leverage, market or sell NCU's programs, accredited status or association on behalf of its own programs (under the NCU brand or other identity) to its Asian affiliations?

6. In what way, if any, is AEF, SCUPS or its faculty and staff associated with the NCU/HUT degree and or delivery of the program?

Perhaps, if these questions were answered or clarified satisfactorily, concerns surrounding the AEF, NCU, NCUI, SCUPS and HUT interrelationships could be put to rest.

Tom

 

A couple of notes

Carlosb - a couple of points.

First, as for regional accreditation, AACSB says in their website, after differentiating institutional and professional accreditation:

1. "Any appropriately authorized collegiate institution offering degrees in business administration and accounting may volunteer for AACSB International accreditation review. "

This doesn't say RA - but then AACSB is an international organization. RA doesn't exist outside the US. I fully expect that AACSB would turn down a non-RA US school based on "appropriately authorized". As a practical reality, you can look at the list of AACSB accredited schools. I don't believe you will find any US school that is AACSB - but isn't regionally accredited.

2. As for comparing Texas A&M with the other school mentioned in this thread - there is a huge difference. As I read the A&M literature they are talking about admitting a person to a graduate program with a bachelor's degree from an unaccredited school. Apparently, this may be possible - on a case-by-case basis. I suspect that graduates of Bob Jones may have a very reasonable shot of being accepted. The point that Eli brought up from the other institution was quite different - that of accepting transfer credits into a graduate degree program.

Regards - Andy

 

A couple of notes

Carlosb - a couple of points.

First, as for regional accreditation, AACSB says in their website, after differentiating institutional and professional accreditation:

1. "Any appropriately authorized collegiate institution offering degrees in business administration and accounting may volunteer for AACSB International accreditation review. "

This doesn't say RA - but then AACSB is an international organization. RA doesn't exist outside the US. I fully expect that AACSB would turn down a non-RA US school based on "appropriately authorized". As a practical reality, you can look at the list of AACSB accredited schools. I don't believe you will find any US school that is AACSB - but isn't regionally accredited.

2. As for comparing Texas A&M with the other school mentioned in this thread - there is a huge difference. As I read the A&M literature they are talking about admitting a person to a graduate program with a bachelor's degree from an unaccredited school. Apparently, this may be possible - on a case-by-case basis. I suspect that graduates of Bob Jones may have a very reasonable shot of being accepted. The point that Eli brought up from the other institution was quite different - that of accepting transfer credits into a graduate degree program.

Regards - Andy

 

Re: A couple of notes

http://www.aacsb.edu/members/educational.asp

Point 1:

Clearly the ACBSP and IACBE have no problem insisting on RA for US schools:

http://www.acbsp.org/index.php?mo=s..._027join&stpg=7

quote:Educational institution membership is available for any institution offering an associate degree, baccalaureate major in business, and/or graduate degree in business. If located in the United States, the institution must be regionally accredited.


http://www.iacbe.org/

1. Institutional Membership

Colleges and universities (postsecondary education) shall be accorded membership in the categories outlined below:

* In the United States any regionally accredited four-year postsecondary education institution that grants degrees in business or business-related education may apply for institutional membership.
* At the discretion of the IACBE Board of Directors, an international degree-granting institution may be granted institutional membership after undergoing a preliminary review by the IACBE Board of Commissioners.


But the "Gold Standard" AACSB has a different view on the subject:

http://www.aacsb.edu/members/educational.asp

Seems to me Pacific Western University does meet the requirements otherwise why be listed with all the other Member Schools?

Look at:

http://www.aacsb.edu/General/InstLists.asp?lid=1

On the same list as Harvard, Stanford, and the other big boys.

http://www.aacsb.edu/members/duesschedule.asp

"P.1.a A School seeking accreditation by AACSB-The International Association for management Education should have appropriate governmental authorization to grant degrees".

PWU is California State Approved. Meets the governmental requirement.

P.1.b:"The School normally should be a part of an institution accredited by an institutional accrediting body or authorized by the appropriate governmental jurisdiction."

PWU is California State Approved. Meets the governmental requirement.

I emphasised the "should" and "normally should." I enjoy discovering loopholes! Note the ACBSP uses "must."

Point 2

Personally I do not see much difference in accepting 120 or so unaccredited undergrad credits towards a graduate degree and transfering x amount of unaccredited credits towards a graduate degree. The school accepts unaccredited credits no matter how you look at it.

Nothing wrong with it. After all, Pacific Western University is listed as an EDUCATIONAL MEMBER INSTITUTION of the AACSB and they are unaccredited!

Just my opinion

 

Would like more information

Simon, how do you know all this? I would like the source of information. NCU's site lists Dr. Hecht as the President but I can't find any information about ownership.

 

Re: Would like more information

If you go to Arizona Corporation Commission and search for Northcentral University, Inc., you will find the annual reports filed for anyone having a corporation in the state. There are 500 voting shares issues of stock and when asked to list all those with an interest in the company greater than 20%, only Donald Hecht's name appears. I conclude that he ownes it all.

Researching corporations is best by starting with the secretary of state because annual reports are kept specifically for the benifit of the public so ownerhip may be disclosed. Unfortunatly, California's site requires forms be filled out and submitted, rather than having it online. I someone fills out the form, the secretary will provide the report on SCUPS and clear up any questions.

 

Re: Would like more information

Yes, suelaine's question is an excellent one. What's up Simon?

 

Re: Would like more information

I spoke with NCA as well as with NCU administration awhile back when I was considering attending this institution.

I find it interesting that you are attending this school and did not obtain this basic information. All you have to do is ask.

 

Re: Re: Would like more information

This is not rocket science and there are no mysteries or conspiracies for you to pursue. Sorry to dissapoint you. So tone down the prosecutorial tone of your question as noted above. As I indicated in my response below to Suelaine all one has to do is ASK. No more, no less.

 

Re: Re: Would like more information

Since you initiated this "mysterious" and "deep" probe, it would be appropriate for you to complete the job. Why don't you fill out and submit the appropriate forms required by California and report back to us your findings rather than asking "someone" else on this board to do so.

 

Re: Re: Re: Would like more information

Actually, this came back from the staffer I made the request to, including the D & B report. I do this all the time Simon in the course of looking into folks bidding to become involved in projects that I'm involved in or bidding on.

There seems to be more in connecting these simple posts of mine to your comments so if you have something to say, just say it. Someone wanted to know where to find it - here's the location. Never intended to be a gopher.

 

Tom,

Interesting speculation. Please provide supportive data (facts) that corroborates and integrates your theories, perceptions and beliefs regarding all the points you make above. Looking forward to review your conclusions.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Would like more information

My initial point was very clear. Primarily, the tone of your question directed to me was prosecutorial. Secondly, prior to initiating probing "investigations" and developing all sorts of theories and impressions regarding an issue that was straightforward did you inquire directly at the primary institutions involved, NCA and NCU?

Furthermore, because you started this "investigative" process and demanded that I respond it would be appropriate if YOU complete the forms required by California regarding SCUPS and finish the "job" you started rather than leave it hanging and up to another poster to followup. It is my impression that to engage in such actions is actually roiling and raises questions as to your bottomline motivations. We are waiting to review your findings from California.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Would like more information

Bye

 

Re: Re: Would like more information

Why then would you necessarily conclude that he owns it all? If Donald Hecht is the only onw who owns 20% or more of the company, then he owns at least 100 shares. From this piece of good info, we do not know who owns the other 400 shares. True, it could be that Donald Hecht also owns the other 400 shares and therefore the entire company. But it could also be that there are other shareholders. Maybe four other people own 99 shares each (less than 20% each, and so no reporting required) and one person owns the last four shares. And maybe 400 people own 1 share each. There are many possibilities. One might check whether Northcentral University, Inc. has any SEC filings with the feds or any ULORs (Uniform Limited Offering Registrations) filed with the state.

 

Re: Re: Re: Would like more information

That's valid point Ted. It's hard without seeing the form, but it has 4 blank lines and Dr. Hecht was the only one filled in. NCU may very well have just left stockholders off the list. It is a self-reported compliance form. I don't know how Arizona maintains its records, but the articles of incorporation would be the next step. I didn't see them online.

 

What I find significant is that two doctoral level students, Suelaine and Messagewritter, are actually attending doctoral programs at NCU but apparently did not have an inkling of an idea as to its ownership or think to inquire about this directly at their university! If they could not obtain this information why didn't they contact NCA if it was such a significant matter to them? I find this a more significant issue than the current speculatory thread as to who actually owns NCU/SCUPS!

 

Simon,

The reality is that I presented facts in each of my posts as they exist; please read them carefully. Beyond that, I, like everyone else, am entitled to draw and discuss inferences, our opinions and possible conclusions based on these facts and other information.

If you have something to counter these facts, new information to offer, or opinions you would like contribute or debate, then by all means please do so. However, until then, I continue to stand by the facts as presented, along with my opinions.

Indeed, I look forward to reading your contribution of information and or opinions.

Tom

 

Re: Re: Transfer fr SCUPS to NCU

This information is quite interesting. A close look at the MGT506 and MGT503 Word docs show they were created in August 2004. Both clearly demonstrate the courses/program are jointly offered by NCU and SCUPS. Also note that Hanoi University of Technology is listed in the title block as well. See the title block below that is displayed on each syllabus:

Northcentral University/SCUPS
Campus: 505 W. Whipple St., Prescott, Arizona 86301-1747 USA  Tel: (928) 541-7777  http://.www.ncu.edu
International Department: Tel: (928) 772-6405  Fax: (928) 772-6240  Email: [email protected]
Vietnam: Hanoi University of Technology, No.1 Dai Co Viet Road, Hai Ba Trung District, Hanoi, Vietnam


The MGT506 syllabus states that the course is part of a SCUPS joint program and that all course material must be submitted to a SCUPS joint program representative. Additionally, it says that SCUPS receives the assignments. The following detail is provided on the MGT506 syllabus:


“***All written exercises need to be submitted to SCUPS joint program representative before the Professor arrives for teaching. All papers need to be typed and double spaced. Each submission needs to include a cover sheet with the student’s name, address, phone, email address, date, course number, course name, paper title, and name of the program for example: “SCUPS/Asean Univ-Cambodia joint program”. All information needs to be written in ENGLISH. The cover page is very important for each submission as SCUPS receives hundreds of submissions weekly, and it is important to have this information to ensure accountability.”

However, the HUT/NCU site (now disabled within the past few days) said:

“NCU will offer you a unique opportunity to obtain quality education and a degree you have dreamed about. With a dynamic staff and experienced faculty, we will make your dream become a reality.” (Quoted from Dr. Donald Hecht)

And

“Northcentral University is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission and the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools (NCACS).You can earn a Bachelor’s Degree, Master’s Degree or Doctorate Degree in Business, Psychology and Technology Management. The International Department of NCU specializes in developing alliances with International Organizations and Foreign Universities. They will customize programs to suit their individual requirements and objectives. NCU’s professors are selected from different accredited U.S. Universities and have rich experiences in the business world. They understand and respect individual cultures and traditions. NCU strives provide the best opportunity to international learners to make your educational objectives become a reality.”

The program is clearly represented as an accredited American degree program from NCU, with no mention of SCUPS anywhere on the website.

*Cached archive of the website: http://web.archive.org/web/20041019183719/http://www.hut.edu.vn/cictt/ncu/

However, the syllabus clearly shows that it is a SCUPS program which is non-accredited. http://homepages.bw.edu/~hbury/Syllabi/ORGANIZATION%20Syllabus.doc

And yes, Dr. Harry Bury who is listed as the professor on the each syllabus is also a SCUPS faculty. http://www.scupsint.com/professors.htm

This is the type of issue and concern that I have with the NCU and SCUPS interrelationship. Basically, it appears that SCUPS is leveraging or sharing NCU’s regional accreditation status on behalf of programs that SCUPS actually offers, operates and delivers. I cannot imagine that NCA ever intended for NCU’s accreditation to be shared or used by SCUPS. If they did, I believe that SCUPS should (would) have been brought in legitimately under the scope of NCU’s accreditation…. only my opinion, of course.

Tom