Too many Ph.Ds.

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by chrisjm18, May 19, 2023.

  1. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Since we are on the topic of recognition, the Commission on University Education (Kenya) stipulates the following for a doctorate to be recognized as equivalent.

    The holder of the Award must have obtained:

    1. An Accredited and Recognized Bachelor’s degree with Second Class Honours Upper Division and above OR Equivalent from an Accredited and Recognized University or Institution.
    2. An Accredited and Recognized Bachelor’s degree with Second Class Honours Lower Division or Equivalent from an Accredited and Recognized University or Institution with a minimum of two years relevant working experience.
    3. An Accredited and Recognized relevant Master’s degree from an Accredited and Recognized University or Institution.
    4. The Bachelors and Master’s degree Certificates must be supported by academic transcripts.
    5. Research must have constituted not less than two thirds of the entire programme structure.
    6. The holder of the Award must have studied for a minimum of three (3) Academic Years.
    7. The academic calendar for the awarding University/Institution must have been divided into one of the following modes:

    a. Semesters comprising two (2) equal Divisions/Terms of between fifteen – seventeen (15-17) weeks per Academic Year;
    b. Trimesters comprising three (3) equal Divisions/Terms of between thirteen-fifteen (13-15) weeks per Academic Year; OR
    c. Quarters comprising four (4) equal Divisions/Terms of between nine-twelve (9-12) weeks per Academic Year.

    I was curious about #5. I wonder if this relates specifically to the dissertation research. Looking at some of the different programs, it seems coursework is typically one year, and the thesis/dissertation is two years. It's not uncommon for someone to complete their dissertation in one year in the U.S.
    tadj and SteveFoerster like this.
  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I'm waiting for someone around here to actually argue this means Kenyan institutions might not recognize doctorates from US schools....
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  3. Grand Ma/Pa Moses

    Grand Ma/Pa Moses New Member

    Maybe you should invert? Or, more importantly, all those recognized course-by-course evaluations, such as WES translation, would find a way to divide the units into credit hours to fit into the USA modal systems. In the same way, if a doctorate holder moves to the other side.
    Last edited: May 24, 2023
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This is stupid.
    This is stupid.
    I agree. I support original research being done in a practice area in order to support the award of a professional doctorate. And I cannot stand to see the few that seem to come up short in this area, yet still award the degree. (Mostly, but not exclusively) DBAs and EdDs.
  5. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I can only talk about Canada but here getting multiple doctorates is not that useful unless you are interested in an adjunct career and want to qualify to teach in several subjects or do it for personal satisfaction.

    Some people get a second doctorate to qualify for a professional career that needs one such as a PSyD or MD.

    I believe Rich did it for personal satisfaction. He earned a second doctorate mainly because it was from a top school while the first one was from an unranked school.

    I have seen people getting a second doctorate because the first one did not serve the main purpose. I know someone that got an Argosy DBA but then earned a PhD from a more traditional school so he could get hired a tenure professor.

    However, I would always prefer one PhD or DBA from a top school like the University of Toronto than 3 doctorates from Azteca, Nicaragua, Poland, Kenya or any of the doctorates discussed here. If my cv has 3 doctorates from very low profile schools, I would think that this would not only not help me but hinder me as the prospect employer would see a person that is eager to impress you with credentials that most people here dont seem to care or aim at. You might come across as a someone not mentally stable. I would rather just show a solid masters degree from a school that people know than 3 doctorates earned online from Mexico, Africa, Poland, etc that will just show someone that might have an obsession with doctorate titles.
  6. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I completed a DBA from Australia, not online but in external format. I evaluated with the University of Toronto and WES, both evaluated it as a Canadian PhD. The program was dissertation only with comprehensive exams but not much coursework involved.
    Dustin likes this.
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    So much for the cheap, max. 12-month DBA -- in Norway, and I imagine EU.
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Sorry, but none of that is accurate.

    I didn't do it for personal satisfaction. I did it to get on top of the field in which I've worked for more than 4 decades, to set a path for the rest of my professional practice. And I did. (I'm thinking about doing it again.)

    As for relative rankings, again, no. That had nothing to do with it. My PhD from Union has served me well and there's never been a situation where it was deemed inadequate. I never felt the need for a degree from a better school. At all. I didn't consider Leicester's ranking (world top 200) at all when I decided to do it. It was the right program for me, period.

    Ironically, the only grief I've ever received about either degree is the one from Leicester. But that was from the nutjobs at WES.
  9. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    OK, sorry if I made the wrong assumptions. I believe you dont work in academia so the WES evaluation might not be needed in your case. Most of these evaluations are needed to get a US work permit so it is less relevant if you are a US citizen. As Leicester is a ranked school, i think the WES evaluation for most of the cases is not needed.
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    My most significant client in my consulting practice is a university. But they don't care about it.

    For academic work, my Union PhD has always been just fine. I've been a graduate from Leicester for 8 years now and I've never "used" the degree in anything but my own promotional materials. Union? Leicester? At this point in my career, it just doesn't matter.

    Foreign degree evaluation is required in many non-academic settings, too, like the federal government

    I did it with WES to see what would happen. I didn't expect the clown show I got. It was like WES fell down and sustained a head injury. They were idiots the entire way. Nonsensical, stupid, and self-contradictory. I've described it in other threads, so I won't repeat it here. If you need a foreign degree evaluation, I would look elsewhere.
  11. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Did you describe it here too, or did someone pretend to be you?

    I think it's the latter. You earned a D.SocSci, not a DBA.

    Anyway, I'm not a fan of WES. I used ECE to evaluate my MBA. The evaluation was only valuable to gain admission to several doctoral programs. It expired in 2021, and I decided not to reevaluate it since I'm not applying for anything requiring an MBA.
  12. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    WES evaluations are subjective. You might send it one year and get a negative and the next get a positive. I have seen positive evaluation of WES for PhDs from schools that are no longer evaluated as positive.

    The more you argue with them, the most negative reaction you get. The best would just to keep quiet and send it at a later time when another evaluator sees it.

    The Doctor of Social Sciences confused them, it is not a very well known degree and probably saw it as less for some reason. There are some DBAs out there that are with no dissertation and mainly course work that might appear like just a masters degree but WES might be more familiar with DBAs.

    The other thing with equivalence is the designation to use in the work place and private practice. If an evaluation service gives you a PhD equivalent but your degree is doctorado, doctor of business, or any other doctorate from another country. Can someone use the PhD in the US with the WES reports? Let's say I have a Doctorado from Spain or Mexico, can I claim a PhD or need to use the acronym Doctorado. In the case of Doctor of Social Science, if WES says is the equivalent of a PhD, can someone call him or herself PhD with this degree?

    I say this because the DBA is losing value, many DBA programs in the US and Canada are now weekend programs with short dissertations that can be empirical based on work study cases that can be completed in 3 years part time. Most universities will not consider DBAs for academic careers because they are not perceived by many as inferior doctorates.
  13. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    This is another problem with evaluations, you are forced to keep paying for new ones. In some instances the school might have closed or might have lost accreditation. In the case of Universidad Central de nicaragua, you might get a positive evaluation but in some years in the future the evaluation might be negative.

    This might not be relevant for American citizens but it is relevant for foreigners in need of work permits. I can apply with a PhD from UCN with a positive WES evaluation in one year but maybe when I need to apply for a new one in 5 years, my visa is rejected because my PhD is no longer valid.
  14. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    You are correct. It's a money-making scheme. However, some evaluations are valid for 10 years. I probably will use ECE again when I complete my M.A. in Counseling Psychology, though their reports are only valid for 5 years. Unless an institution specifically requires an evaluation from WES, you can always try another if your evaluation changes from positive to negative.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Of course it's not me. The fake poster even got my name wrong.

    That site is polluted. Anyone who's been around here knows that.
    chrisjm18 likes this.
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    In my case, they were objective. Objectively wrong, that is.

    They insisted I'd earned a professional doctorate. I did not. I earn a scholarly doctorate the school makes clear they consider EQUAL (not equivalent) to a PhD. They consider it a scholarly degree. It carries the exact same points as a PhD. The British system considers it the same as a PhD. The only reason it isn't a PhD is because it has a taught component.

    WES would not consider ANY of this. They acted like a child who wouldn't eat his peas. It wasn't just one evaluator. They insisted it was their POLICY.

    As for NACES, they refused to get involved, saying it was WES's call.

    It didn't matter to me and it never will. But I'll call them out each and every time I can, and I hope people avoid them at all costs.
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    They weren't confused. A simple look at Leicester's website would have clarified things. No, they have a policy and simply would not look further. In other words, THEY EVALUATED NOTHING! No "evaluation" took place. It was a knee-jerk reaction (emphasis on the jerk part).
    Okay, but did WES ask for a copy of my thesis? Of course not. Because they weren't actually evaluating anything, even after their mistake was pointed out. (I provided them all the urls.)
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  18. datby98

    datby98 Active Member

    Unfortunately, I recall many universities (at least those I contacted) in the US only want to see WES reports. :confused:
  19. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Pretty sure that's the minority (less than one percent). Most schools accept any NACES (or AICE) members, with some either requiring or stating a preference for a few agencies. I haven't come across any that specify only one agency. However, there are over 5,000 schools in the U.S. So...

    Harvard accepts ECE and WES. Yale accepts any NACES or AICE member organization.
    datby98, Rachel83az and tadj like this.
  20. datby98

    datby98 Active Member

    Thank you for correcting me, Chris. I will check if the schools that I am looking forward to might recognize any agencies other than WES.
    Rich Douglas and chrisjm18 like this.

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